Tawassul, A challenge to all Options

[Kalaam]

Allah(swt) is Aadil, that is Just. His justice demand the presence of Hadi' Barhaq at all times in all era because:

If Shaitan exists and can stray us away,
similarly an approach of intercession towards the guided ones could lead us towards the right path, the path of those who have been blessed instead of the cursed ones.

If God could interact directly with humans, then why did He send Messengers to communicate with us?

The system of guidance demands that we must follow and remain in touich His Pious chosen Hadi's.

Hope it clarifies.

“O believers! Fear Allah and seek the means to approach Him and strive in His way haply you may receive prosperity.”

[Surah Al Ma’idah, verse 35]

If shaitan exists an can lead us astray,
God also exists, he can protect us

[072:022] Say: "No one can deliver me from God (If I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him,


[011:061] To the Thamud People (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren. He said: "O my people! Worship God: ye have no other god but Him. It is He Who hath produced you from the earth and settled you therein: then ask forgiveness of Him, and turn to Him (in repentance): for my Lord is (always) near, ready to answer."

The means to approach God means acts , prayers ,worship.
God is near to us, we need to worship Him.

[050:016] It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

[Bar Haq]

If shaitan exists an can lead us astray,
God also exists, he can protect us

NawozobilAllah, are you comparing Shaitaan' with Allah (swt) ?

[072:022] Say: "No one can deliver me from God (If I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him,

And how do you find refuge with Him?

May be the following verse can provide the same refuge that you are talking about?

"We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful" (4:64)".


Also, before I paste more such verses, let me ask you, do you ever ask your parents for Dua? If yes, in light of your own inspiration from the 72:22, how would you defend the argument to ask your parents to pray for you?



Before you revert with few ahadith, let us examine tawassul carefully from Quranic verses that establishes its legitimacy.

"Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by his permission" (2:255); "Surely your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firmly established on the throne, regulating the affair; there is no intercessor except after His Permission."

Notice the words "but" and "except" in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam. There are many more verses in the same context that explain the legitimacy of tawassul.

1. "On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with" (20:109)
2. "And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits" (34:23)
3. "And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses" (53:26)
4. "...And they do not intercede except for him whom He approve..." (21:28)
5. "And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)" (43:86)

The above verses only touch on the mere fact of intercession in Islam. However a verse in Chapter Nisaa', becomes more specific about the act of tawassal. In Chapter Nisaa' Allah explains:

"We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful" (4:64)".

Here it has been made clear that the presence of the Prophet of Allah (SWT) has been a way for the people to use as a means of approach in asking forgiveness.

The above mentioned verses and many other ayats/verses in Quran encourage the practice of tawassul, but only if its to the right people and to the chosen people by Allah (SWT).

[Kalaam]

NawozobilAllah, are you comparing Shaitaan' with Allah (swt) ?

what?

And for the rest of your post, we do not condemn that you tell your parents to pray for you.
Rather we condemn when you say

O Jesus, help me,
O Ali, help me,
O Imam Husain , protect me from harms.

Justify that if you can, leave the rest, focus on justifying this in the light of Quran and sunnah.

[Bar Haq]

And for the rest of your post, we do not condemn that you tell your parents to pray for you.

Considering the topic under discussion of Tawassul, and you being quite vocal in saying that we should not bring anyone between ourselves and God, then why do you not condemn asking Parents to pray for you.
Please clarify your logic -- from whatever source..

Rather we condemn when you say

O Jesus, help me,
O Ali, help me,
O Imam Husain , protect me from harms.

Justify that if you can, leave the rest, focus on justifying this in the light of Quran and sunnah.

Once you clarify your logic and understanding, then I can perhaps compile my thoughts in a better position to discuss the same.
Also, please clarify, under what logic do you beleive that Shaitan can astray you away?
How? Does he physically appears and distracts you or he remains invisible?
What's your logic -- please justify.


Under the discussed pretext, it's not appropriate to totally refute the put forward verses by saying, "Leave the rest"
What is the assurity that if I come accross with more verses and Sunnah, you'll not repeat the same attitude saying, "Leave the Rest" now only justify .. something which pops up in your mind?

Please let me know what do you accept -- For sure, you are ignoring the Quranic verse here.

[Bar Haq]

AOAWRBHU:

Today is Thursday, and let me paste this supplication beautifully describes the power and blessing of intercession:


The Supplication on Thursdays
بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ
bismill¡hi alrra¦m¡ni alrra¦¢mi
In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful.

اَلْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ ٱلَّذِي اذْهَبَ ٱللَّيْلَ مُظْلِماً بِقُدْرَتِهِ
al¦amdu lill¡hi alladh¢ adh-haba allayla mu¨liman biqudratih¢
All praise be to Allah Who has taken away the shadowy night by His power

وَجَاءَ بِٱلنَّهَارِ مُبْصِراً بِرَحْمَتِهِ
wa j¡'a bilnnah¡ri mub¥iran bira¦matih¢
and brought the sight-giving day through His mercy.

وَكَسَانِي ضِيَاءَهُ وَآتَانِي نِعْمَتَهُ
wa kas¡n¢ ¤iy¡'ah£ wa ¡tan¢ ni`matah£
He has clothed me in its brightness and given me its favor.

اللَّهُمَّ فَكَمَا ابْقَيْتَنِي لَهُ فَ ابْقِنِي لامْثَالِهِ
all¡humma fakam¡ abqaytan¢ lah£ fa-abqin¢ li-amth¡lih¢
O Allah, just as You have spared me for this day, so also spare me for its likes,

وَصَلِّ عَلَىٰ ٱلنَّبِيِّ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ
wa ¥alli `al¡ alnnabiyyi mu¦ammadin wa ¡lihi
bless the Prophet Mu¦ammad and his Household,

وَلاَ تَفْجَعْنِي فِيهِ وَفِي غَيْرِهِ
wa l¡ tafja`n¢ f¢hi wa f¢ ghayrih¢
torment me not in it and in other

مِنَ ٱللَّيَالِي وَٱلايَّامِ
min allay¡l¢ wal-ayy¡mi
nights and days

بِٱرْتِكَابِ ٱلْمَحَارِمِ
birtik¡bi alma¦¡rimi
by my commitment of unlawful acts

وَٱكْتِسَابِ ٱلْمَآثِمِ
waktis¡bi alma'¡thimi
and clothing myself in sins;

وَٱرْزُقْنِي خَيْرَهُ
warzuqn¢ khayrah£
provide me with its good,

وَخَيْرَ مَا فِيهِ
wa khayra m¡ f¢hi
the good of all within it,

وَخَيْرَ مَا بَعْدَهُ
wa khayra m¡ ba`dah£
and the good of everything after it;

وَٱصْرِفْ عَنِّي شَرَّهُ
wa¥rif `ann¢ sharrah£
and turn away from me its evil,

وَشَرَّ مَا فِيهِ
wa sharra m¡ f¢hi
the evil of all within it,

وَشَرَّ مَا بَعْدَهُ
wa sharra m¡ ba`dahu
and the evil of everything after it!

اَللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي بِذِمَّةِ ٱلإِسْلامِ اتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ
all¡humma inn¢ bidhimmati al-isl¡mi atawassalu ilayka
O Allah, by the protective compact of Islam, I seek mediation with You!

وَبِحُرْمَةِ ٱلْقُرآنِ اعْتَمِدُ عَلَيْكَ
wabi¦urmati alqur'¡ni a`tamidu `alayka
By the inviolability of the Qur'¡n, I rely upon You!

وَبِمُحَمَّدٍ ٱلْمُصْطَفَىٰ
wa bimu¦ammadin almu¥§af¡
By Mu¦ammad the chosen,

صَلَّىٰ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْه وَآلِهِ
¥all¡ all¡hu `alayhi wa ¡lih¢
Allah bless him and his Household,

اسْتَشْفِعُ لَدَيْكَ
astashfi`u ladayka
I seek intercession with You.

فَٱعْرِفِ ٱللَّهُمَّ ذِمَّتِي
fa`rif all¡humma dhimmat¢
So, recognize my protective compact

ٱلَّتِي رَجَوْتُ بِهَا قَضَاءَ حَاجَتِي
allat¢ rajawtu bih¡ qa¤¡'a ¦¡jat¢
by which I hope my need will be granted,

يَا ارْحَمَ ٱلرَّاحِمِينَ
y¡ ar¦ama arr¡¦im¢na
O Most Merciful of all those who show mercy!

اَللَّهُمَّ ٱقْضِ لِي فِي ٱلْخَمِيسِ خَمْساً
all¡humma iq¤i l¢ f¢ alkham¢si khamsan
O Allah, decree for me on Thursday five things,

لاَ يَتَّسِعُ لَهَا إِلاَّ كَرَمُكَ
l¡ yattasi`u lah¡ ill¡ karamuka
which none embraces but Your generosity

وَلاَ يُطِيقُهَا إِلاَّ نِعَمُكَ
wa l¡ yu§¢quh¡ ill¡ ni`amuka
and none supports but Your favors:

سَلامَةً اقْوَىٰ بِهَا عَلَىٰ طَاعَتِكَ
sal¡matan aqw¡ bih¡ `al¡ §¡`atika
health through which I may have the strength to obey You,

وَعِبَادَةً اسْتَحِقُّ بِهَا جَزِيلَ مَثُوبَتِكَ
wa `ib¡datan asta¦iqqu bih¡ jaz¢la math£batika
worship by which I may deserve Your plentiful reward,

وَسَعَةً فِي ٱلْحَالِ مِنَ ٱلرِّزْقِ ٱلْحَلالِ
wa sa`atan f¢ al¦¡li min alrrizqi al¦al¡li
plenty in my state through lawful provision,

وَ انْ تُؤْمِنَنِي فِي مَوَاقِفِ ٱلْخَوْفِ بِامْنِكَ
wa an tu'minan¢ f¢ maw¡qifi alkhawfi bi-amnika
and that You make me secure in the places of fear through Your security,

وَتَجْعَلَنِي مِنْ طَوَارِقِ ٱلْهُمُومِ وَٱلْغُمُومِ فِي حِصْنِكَ
wa taj`alan¢ min §aw¡riqi alhum£mi walghum£mi f¢ ¦i¥nika
and place me in Your fortress against the striking of worries and sorrows!

صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ
¥alli ‘al¡ mu¦ammadin wa ¡lih¢
Bless Mu¦ammad and his Household,

وَٱجْعَلْ تَوَسُّلِي بِهِ شَافِعاً
waj`al tawassul¢ bih¢ sh¡fi`an
and make my seeking his mediation as an intercessor give profit

يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ نَافِعاً
yawma alqiy¡mati n¡fi`an
on the Day of Resurrection!

إِنَّكَ انْتَ ارْحَمُ ٱلرَّاحِمِينَ
innaka anta ar¦amu arra¦im¢na
Surely, You are the Most Merciful of all those who show mercy!

[Kalaam]

Considering the topic under discussion of Tawassul, and you being quite vocal in saying that we should not bring anyone between ourselves and God, then why do you not condemn asking Parents to pray for you.
Please clarify your logic -- from whatever source..

Because of the hadith

"Three peoples prayers is always accepted, a father's prayer for his children, a traveller's prayer and the prayer of an oppressed person."

Now you prove how is it permissible now to say,

O Ali, help us

Once you clarify your logic and understanding, then I can perhaps compile my thoughts in a better position to discuss the same.
Also, please clarify, under what logic do you beleive that Shaitan can astray you away?
How? Does he physically appears and distracts you or he remains invisible?
What's your logic -- please justify.


Under the discussed pretext, it's not appropriate to totally refute the put forward verses by saying, "Leave the rest"
What is the assurity that if I come accross with more verses and Sunnah, you'll not repeat the same attitude saying, "Leave the Rest" now only justify .. something which pops up in your mind?

Please let me know what do you accept -- For sure, you are ignoring the Quranic verse here.

Everything is crystal clear.

Prove from islamic point of view,
how is it permissible to say

O Jesus, protect me from sufferings
O Ali, help me, give me food
O Fatima, give success to us.

We reject such invocations, to anyone else than God, and you defend that.
The whole issue is on this. Prove this now.

This post has been edited by Kalaam: Oct 14 2010, 08:35 AM

[Bar Haq]

Because of the hadith

"Three peoples prayers is always accepted, a father's prayer for his children, a traveller's prayer and the prayer of an oppressed person."


Everything is crystal clear.

Exactly, it's crystal clear to me, but apparently you seem to very confused on the topic of Tawassul

On the same topic, Marc 17th i believe at 1:34pm you posted:

Post #4

Kalam:
First tell me, why do we need tawassul? Isn't Allah enough for us? Or is He far from us and we need some mediator or else He will not listen to us or something? Kindly explain anyone who is interested. I want to first know why people need tawassul.

now you are saying as per some Hadith, Three people are allowed for Tawassul?

What are you upto friend?
I guess, if you are accepting tawassul of three people, then it means you are accepting the concept of Tawassul, which is the topic under discussion


You don't want to ask Imam Ali (a.s.) for help, then don't what's wrong if other consider His (pbuh) Tawasul more spiritual and beneficial?

Go find some Opressed one in Saudi Arabia and ask for his Intercession

Go find a traveller and ask for his Intercession

I think the debate is waste of time ,as you seem to be in favor of Tawassul, but based on your biasness to accept Imamat, you are just circling around the topic.

This discussion is purely on "Tawassul" in general, but if you want to debate particularly on the Tawassul of Ya Ali (a.s.) Madad/Help, then start a new topic, but you have to first openly declare whether or not you believe in Tawassul/Intercession. Otherwise, it would be a futile exercise to discuss the topic, so please clearly state, what do you believe in ?

Thanks

This post has been edited by Bar Haq: Oct 17 2010, 12:59 AM

[Kalaam]

Exactly, it's crystal clear to me, but apparently you seem to very confused on the topic of Tawassul

On the same topic, Marc 17th i believe at 1:34pm you posted:

Post #4
Kalam:
First tell me, why do we need tawassul? Isn't Allah enough for us? Or is He far from us and we need some mediator or else He will not listen to us or something? Kindly explain anyone who is interested. I want to first know why people need tawassul.

now you are saying as per some Hadith, Three people are allowed for Tawassul?

What are you upto friend?
I guess, if you are accepting tawassul of three people, then it means you are accepting the concept of Tawassul, which is the topic under discussion

Kindly bring the proof that I say as per some hadith, three people are allowed for tawassul. Or else, it is a false accusation on me.

You don't want to ask Imam Ali (a.s.) for help, then don't what's wrong if other consider His (pbuh) Tawasul more spiritual and beneficial?

Go find some Opressed one in Saudi Arabia and ask for his Intercession

Go find a traveller and ask for his Intercession

I think the debate is waste of time ,as you seem to be in favor of Tawassul, but based on your biasness to accept Imamat, you are just circling around the topic.

This discussion is purely on "Tawassul" in general, but if you want to debate particularly on the Tawassul of Ya Ali (a.s.) Madad/Help, then start a new topic, but you have to first openly declare whether or not you believe in Tawassul/Intercession. Otherwise, it would be a futile exercise to discuss the topic, so please clearly state, what do you believe in ?

Thanks

If you can answer what I asked you, that how is it permissible to say

O Jesus, protect me from sufferings
O Ali, help me, give me food
O Fatima, give success to us.

If you can answer that , than it should be very nice of you, if you can't , I would not like to waste my time on irrelevant issues.

[Killed Bill]

Kalaam, you contradict yourself many times.

At first you say intercession is NOT possible, then you say it is possible in certain cases (asking someone to make dua for you). Do you not see this? Your argument is flawed from this very start and I suggest you take a moment and come back with a different approach.

[Bar Haq]

Kindly bring the proof that I say as per some hadith, three people are allowed for tawassul. Or else, it is a false accusation on me.

see the attached image, where you justifed asking your parent and travellers and oppressed one for help/tawasul





If you can answer what I asked you, that how is it permissible to say

O Jesus, protect me from sufferings
O Ali, help me, give me food
O Fatima, give success to us.

If you can answer that , than it should be very nice of you, if you can't , I would not like to waste my time on irrelevant issues.

No I don't believe that I can Ask Ali (a.s.) do give me Food.



The asking of intercession from the intercessor, like the asking of du'a from a pious Muslim, in no way implies that the person who asks, believes any good can come apart from Allah (swt). In effect he is asking Allah (swt), but he is using the means that Allah put at his disposal, including the intercession of those who may be closer than himself to Allah. If you hear some Muslims saying O Mahdi (a.s.)! Or O Ali (a.s.)! it is not that the they believe these two Imamas can do anything without the will and want of Allah (SWT). When you tell your clergy to pray for you, you know in your heart that the clergy cannot do anything unless Allah (SWT) wants for it to happen, but you believe since he is a man of worship and spends more of his time in the way of Allah, his prayer might get accepted faster. This ideology again takes us back to the secondary cause. One may feel too ashamed of one's bad actions and shall turn to Allah (swt) for forgiveness. To make the forgiveness process a bit quicker he brings with him someone who is dearer to Allah through his actions and intentions. Here is an example from the Holy Qur'an:


The Brother of Prophet Yusuf asked that their father pray for their forgiveness


An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

"O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." (12:97-98).


Similarly, Prophet Sulayman sought the help of the people not Allah (swt)


And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:

38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

39. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

40. Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"

So here we learn:

Prophet Sulayman asked for the throne of Bilkis to be brought to him

He did not pray to Allah (swt) he asked for the help from his supporters

A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.


Now clearly a Prophet has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah (swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?

Now, if a Prophet can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can't I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur'an, or from Maula Ali who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:

"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali :

"Ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain"
History of the Khailfa's who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

Attached File(s)

 kalam_tawasul.jpg ( 46.62K ) Number of downloads: 2

 

[Kalaam]

At first you say intercession is NOT possible, then you say it is possible in certain cases (asking someone to make dua for you). Do you not see this? Your argument is flawed from this very start and I suggest you take a moment and come back with a different approach.

this thing is obvious, what i differ with you is when you say "O Ali help us!", if i tell my father to pray for me, no one rejects this. Don't make it complex trying to confuse people.

No I don't believe that I can Ask Ali (a.s.) do give me Food.

so you also reject the statement
Ya Ali madad
O Ali help me

Yes or no?

The Brother of Prophet Yusuf AS.gif asked that their father pray for their forgiveness


An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf AS.gif were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

"O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." (12:97-98).

no one disagrees with you over this. forget about it.

Similarly, Prophet Sulayman AS.gif sought the help of the people not Allah (swt)


And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:

38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

39. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

kindly don't try to prove your and christian slogans
O Ali help me
O Jesus help me

How can you defend these with the argument that Solomon asked his men to do a certain job for him? What lame argument. So if you tell your servant Mr. XYZ to bring a cup of tea for you, and he brings , so the grandson of your grandson can say (when XYZ has died)

O XYZ, help me

Similarly if a robot does a job for you, it makes it correct to say

O robot , help us


Dude, God doesn't stop the humans from taking help from eachother, but what you do can't be legitimized with such example. This is the most ridiculous example you can give in your defence.

He AS.gif did not pray to Allah (swt) he asked for the help from his supporters

A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.


Now clearly a Prophet AS.gif has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah (swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman AS.gif seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?

I am stunned

Now, if a Prophet AS.gif can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can't I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur'an, or from Maula Ali AS.gif who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:

"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali AS.gif:

"Ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain"
History of the Khailfa's who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

I said to the shop keeper, give me a 10 kg of sugar. I didn't ask God to give me 10 kg of sugar but i told the shop keeper. so it means that we can invoke upon others besides God. So this means that saying O Ali, help me is also correct because Ali is superior to my shop keeper. Hence it is correct to say Ya Ali madad.

Mind blowing arguments by shiite community.

[Bar Haq]

this thing is obvious, what i differ with you is when you say "O Ali help us!", if i tell my father to pray for me, no one rejects this. Don't make it complex trying to confuse people.

Why do you support the argument of asking Oh Father Help Me? this is not a confusion, but the answer perhaps lies in your acceptance of the logic, which you are indeed shy away to openly share on this forum. If the logic you follow allows you to request your fathers intercession, then the boolean operator that implies here is TRUE!

No I don't believe that I can Ask Ali (a.s.) do give me Food.

so you also reject the statement
Ya Ali madad
O Ali help me

Yes or no?

No! Not at All.
I support Tawassul and Intercession! PERIOD.
Now I can't do much to open your brain to conduct a neuro brainwashing for taking out the disease of Literalism, induced and injected by WAHABIS!

The Brother of Prophet Yusuf AS.gif asked that their father pray for their forgiveness


An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf AS.gif were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

"O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." (12:97-98).

Kalam : no one disagrees with you over this. forget about it.

Why should we forget about a clear example of Tawassul in Al Quran

Why do you not disagree here? How can a father intercede to make supplication for their sons? What authority the father has to ask for forgivness for the crimes conducted by their son?

Why are you so bewildered on the concept of Tawasul? You are so clicked to the words of HELP ME only?

Similarly, Prophet Sulayman AS.gif sought the help of the people not Allah (swt)


And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:

38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

39. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."


Kalam: don't try to prove your and christian slogans
O Ali help me
O Jesus help me

What else we are debating here other than proving Tawassul?

You are okay, if son asks Father to help them and ask Allah for forgiveness for the crimes they have committed? But you are against us asking those, whom we love more than our Fathers, for example, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Molah Ali (a.s.) to help us by asking Allah (swt) to forgive us? Objective is to seek their help to intercede with Allah? What's wrong?

How can you defend these with the argument that Solomon asked his men to do a certain job for him? What lame argument. So if you tell your servant Mr. XYZ to bring a cup of tea for you, and he brings , so the grandson of your grandson can say (when XYZ has died)

O XYZ, help me

Do you think Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is dead?
Then why do you bear witness in your prayers and Azan that He (pbuh) IS the messenger of God
Shouldn't you be saying HE (was) -- Nauzobilllah?

Why do you pray for Him by saying PEACE BE UPON HIM, what is the significance of BE upon Him --

Why do you recite un Alaiha on Him (pbuh)?

Are you a Hypocrite/Confused or just a LITERAL ROBOT OF WAHABISM?

Similarly if a robot does a job for you, it makes it correct to say

O robot , help us

You can give better examples than Robot?
What a joke!
One can expect this from a LITERAL ROBOT OF WAHABI.

Dude, God doesn't stop the humans from taking help from eachother, but what you do can't be legitimized with such example. This is the most ridiculous example you can give in your defence.

what do we do other than seeking help from the blessed people of Allah (swt), like Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Ali (a.s.) to Intercede and request Allah (a.s.) to bless us in our worldly matters and actions that we perform. What's wrong with it ?

He AS.gif did not pray to Allah (swt) he asked for the help from his supporters



A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.


Now clearly a Prophet AS.gif has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah (swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman AS.gif seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?



Kalam: I am stunned

You are not stunned, but you are glued to Wahabism! and ignoring that Prophet of Allah is seeking HELP from someone who has little knowledge of Book to bring Throne within seconds from thousands of Miles away. It's nto asking for a cup of TEA DUDE!!!
The verse talks about seeking help from those who're even possesed with the knowledge of the BOOK... as I wrote earlier see beyond WORDS DUDE -- you need to wear the Glasses of MAARFAAT

Now, if a Prophet AS.gif can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can't I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur'an, or from Maula Ali AS.gif who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:

"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali AS.gif:

"Ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain"
History of the Khailfa's who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

Kalam:I said to the shop keeper, give me a 10 kg of sugar. I didn't ask God to give me 10 kg of sugar but i told the shop keeper. so it means that we can invoke upon others besides God. So this means that saying O Ali, help me is also correct because Ali is superior to my shop keeper. Hence it is correct to say Ya Ali madad.

Mind blowing arguments by shiite community.

As I wrote above, you are a victim of literalism -- and not seeing the concept of intercession and Tawassul behind the literal words of HELP ME? CUP OF TEA AND 10 KG Sugar -- What a trained Mind of a Wahabi you are -- I am sure, WAHAB must be thinking that you are more loyal than the King

YOU NEED HELP IN LIFE BRO -- REVERT TO THOSE WHO ARE THE BLESSED ONES, YOU RECITE AND PRAY THIS FIVE TIMES A DAY ANAMTA ALAIHM -- FIFRST FIND OUT WHO ARE THEY AND THEN SEEK THEIR HELP TO INTERCEEDE WITH ALLAH (SWT), SO WE CAN REMAIN ON THE RIGHT PATH ..


MADAD OR HELP IS A ACCEPTED NORM OF WORDS TO SEEK THEIR INTERCESSION WITH ALLAH (SWT). JUST REPLACE THE WORDS WITH YOUR FAVORITE ONES IF YOU ACCEPT INTERCESSION AND TAWASSUL

TAKE THE ESSENCE OF THE MEANINGS DRIVEN THROUGH WORDS THAN FOCUSING ONLY THE LITERAL MEANINGS OF WORDS AND IN DOING SO BECOME A VICTIM OF LITERALISM.

FIRST ASK YOURSELF WHAT DO YOU BELEIVE IN RATHER THAN WORRYING ABOUT WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING IS SHIRK BIDAH ETC.

TO ME IF YOU CAN ASK YOUR FATHER FOR HELP TO PRAY TO ALLAH -- THEN YOU ACTUALLY BELEIVE IN TAWASSUL BUT YOU ARE SHY AWAY TO ACCEPT IT. YOU ARE ONLY NOT ACCEPTING THE WORD HELP, BUT IN ESSENCE YOU ARE ASKING FOR HELP FROM YOUR FATHER TO PRAY!!!!

[Killed Bill]

Kalaam, or any others

Tell me EXACTLY what Tawassul is.

[Bar Haq]

Kalaam, or any others

Tell me EXACTLY what Tawassul is.

AOAWRHBHU:



I came accross an interesting article, which I believe delineates the concept of Tawassul from Quran and Hadith quite eloquently:


What is Tawassul?


The lexical meaning of tawassul is 'nearness' or a 'means' through which to reach a certain goal (see Lisan al-'Arab, Asas al-Balaghah and Tartib al-Qamus al-Muhit for meaning of wasala) For instance, when it is said wa wassala ila Allah, it means to perform a certain act for gaining proximity to God. Accordingly wasil here means being 'desirous of God'. According to the prominent Sunni scholar, Sayyid Muhammad Alusi al-Baghdadi, wasilah is a means of imploring in order to gain nearness to God through good deeds and abstaining from sins. For example when it is said "wasala ila kadha," it means a thing through which nearness is gained.

It should be noted that intercession in no way diminishes the fact that everything is under Allah's sovereignty. When we use the means of approach toward Allah (SWT), it does not mean we are worshiping that means, thus in no way does it go against the verse, "Thee do we worship.."(1:4). However, Allah created secondary causes and means as He has encouraged us in the Holy Quran to use assistance. In Chapter AL-Ma-Idah Allah (SWT) tells those who believe: "????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??". "Oh you who believe! Fear Allah and seek the means of approach to Him, and strive hard in His way, that haply you may have success" (5:35).

If we analyse the words in this verse closely we see that "fear Allah" is a commandment to abstain from sin, while "seek an approach unto Him" is an order to perform worship and acts of devotion (see Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, p. 124-128). Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, one of the highly respected Mutazzali ulema, says in his Commentary of Nahju'l Balagha, that "Sayyida Fatima Zahra referred to the meaning of this verse in the presence of the Muhajirs and Ansars, while delivering her address in connection with the usurpation of her estate of Fadak, in these words:

"I praise Allah for Whose Dignity and Light the residents of the skies and the earth seek means of approach towards Him. Amoung His creation we are the means of approach."
Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, Sharhe Nahju'l Balagha, Volume IV, page 79

This saying is coming from a person who Allah (SWT) has said regarding her and her family in Chapter of Al-Ahzab: "Verily Allah intends but to keep off from you (every kind of) uncleanliness, O you the people of the house, and purify you with a thorough purification.
Quran, Chapter 33, Al-Ahzab, Verse 33.

One might complain that this verse is not about the Prophet's daughter, so to that we bring a hadith from Sahih Muslim, narrarated from Aisha:

"A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)."
Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5955

Bottom line is, when we say "Thine aid we seek"(1:4), according to verse (5:35) that aid can also be through secondary means. Whether we approach Allah without tawassul, or with tawassul, both means are acceptable in Islam. Shiites do not condemn the fact that asking Allah without using Shafee' (intercessor) will not get your prayer accepted. Through proof of Quranic verses and Prophetic narration's, Shiites have learned that asking shafee' only quickens the process due to the highly respected person we are taking as shafee'

[Killed Bill]

I do agree with you Haq, but the question was referred to Kalaam since I do not quite understand his concept of Tawassul, so perhaps if he explained it thoroughly before he argued his point, it would be a lot more appreciated.

[Kalaam]

I think much has already been said

regarding

"I praise Allah for Whose Dignity and Light the residents of the skies and the earth seek means of approach towards Him. Amoung His creation we are the means of approach."
Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, Sharhe Nahju'l Balagha, Volume IV, page 79

a shia mutazali's book of commentary on a shia hadith book is of no evidence for us.

YOU NEED HELP IN LIFE BRO -- REVERT TO THOSE WHO ARE THE BLESSED ONES, YOU RECITE AND PRAY THIS FIVE TIMES A DAY ANAMTA ALAIHM -- FIFRST FIND OUT WHO ARE THEY AND THEN SEEK THEIR HELP TO INTERCEEDE WITH ALLAH (SWT), SO WE CAN REMAIN ON THE RIGHT PATH ..

they are the ones on whom Allah showered His blessings. By your examples, it seems to me that I can say

O robot help me


also. No joke. Your arguments are evidence of it.

The verse talks about seeking help from those who're even possesed with the knowledge of the BOOK... as I wrote earlier see beyond WORDS DUDE -- you need to wear the Glasses of MAARFAAT

Yes yes, you must be correct, lets blame it on glasses of maarfaat.

[Bar Haq]

I think much has already been said

regarding

"I praise Allah for Whose Dignity and Light the residents of the skies and the earth seek means of approach towards Him. Amoung His creation we are the means of approach."
Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, Sharhe Nahju'l Balagha, Volume IV, page 79

a shia mutazali's book of commentary on a shia hadith book is of no evidence for us.

YOU NEED HELP IN LIFE BRO -- REVERT TO THOSE WHO ARE THE BLESSED ONES, YOU RECITE AND PRAY THIS FIVE TIMES A DAY ANAMTA ALAIHM -- FIFRST FIND OUT WHO ARE THEY AND THEN SEEK THEIR HELP TO INTERCEEDE WITH ALLAH (SWT), SO WE CAN REMAIN ON THE RIGHT PATH ..

they are the ones on whom Allah showered His blessings. By your examples, it seems to me that I can say

O robot help me


also. No joke. Your arguments are evidence of it.

The verse talks about seeking help from those who're even possesed with the knowledge of the BOOK... as I wrote earlier see beyond WORDS DUDE -- you need to wear the Glasses of MAARFAAT

Yes yes, you must be correct, lets blame it on glasses of maarfaat.

AOAWRHBU:

Mate, can't you come with better answers than being psycho-acoustic .

Let me make it simple question:


Please answer it clearly, are you allowed to seek intercession between you and Allah (swt)?

Yes/No?

Before answering No, then please swear upon God that you will never ask anyone, and I mean ANYONE To pray for you.

This post has been edited by Bar Haq: Oct 31 2010, 05:20 AM