Islam's Greatest Perceived Flaw(s) Options

What do u perceive to be islam's greatest flaw(s)?

...all are invited!

The flaws of Islam only seem to exist in the minds of the ignorant.



This post has been edited by Al-Din'As-Darfur: May 25 2008, 04:15 PM

People is Islams greatest flaw.

al-din'as-darfur-The flaws of Islam only seem to exist in the minds of the ignorant.

And i am intersted in knowing what exists in the minds of the ignorant.

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juan-People is Islams greatest flaw.

Do u mean people as a product of islam, or people as misrepresentative of islam?

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i will try to rephrase my question: what makes non-muslims steer clear from islam? and anything that muslims wish (devil's whisperings?) were different?

al-din'as-darfur-The flaws of Islam only seem to exist in the minds of the ignorant.

And i am intersted in knowing what exists in the minds of the ignorant.

______________

juan-People is Islams greatest flaw.

Do u mean people as a product of islam, or people as misrepresentative of islam?

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i will try to rephrase my question: what makes non-muslims steer clear from islam? and anything that muslims wish (devil's whisperings?) were different?

The latter. I will wait and see who comments and how before I explain this out.

Islam has no flaw. Islam is perfect.

The flaw lies in the human- we are in an age where Muslims are not representing Islam in a true, real light.
And those who are, are not the ones put on display, but the ones who are mis-representing it. Thus giving the masses a false picture.

Islam has no flaw. Islam is perfect.

The flaw lies in the human- we are in an age where Muslims are not representing Islam in a true, real light.
And those who are, are not the ones put on display, but the ones who are mis-representing it. Thus giving the masses a false picture.

Before the debate gets any deeper I have to ask people what is Islam first. What makes up Islam before we can start to say hey this is a flaw oh look at that. Cause does Islam include its followers?

This post has been edited by juan: May 27 2008, 09:40 AM

KeeKee said it.

Islam is a religion, there is no flaw in the religion. The flaw lies in the 'muslims'..humans are not perfect, therefore prone to error and are misrepresentative of Islam.
To understand true Islam, check out the Quran.

KeeKee said it.

Islam is a religion, there is no flaw in the religion. The flaw lies in the 'muslims'..humans are not perfect, therefore prone to error and are misrepresentative of Islam.
To understand true Islam, check out the Quran.

So we are going to say practices of the religion is part of the religion?

Number one thing we have established is the Quran is part of Islam. How about hadiths now?

juan-Number one thing we have established is the Quran is part of Islam. How about hadiths now?

Let me see u blow holes in the qur'an. a failed qur'an, i suppose, would mean failed islam.

What keeps u, and others, from accepting the quran? complaints (why this way?) and suggestions (maybe this way?) regarding islam (or God) most welcome.

juan-Number one thing we have established is the Quran is part of Islam. How about hadiths now?

Let me see u blow holes in the qur'an. a failed qur'an, i suppose, would mean failed islam.

What keeps u, and others, from accepting the quran? complaints (why this way?) and suggestions (maybe this way?) regarding islam (or God) most welcome.

Onlinetoenjoy I am trying to get a basis of what we all can agree on to what makes up Islam. One persons views is differnent from the next. I was saying that we all can agree that the Quran is part of Islam. I will even venture forth and say Mohammed is another part. Meaning his example and teachings. I ask about hadiths cause some might consider them part of Islam and others may not.

the declaration of faith is 'there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger therefore the Prophet peace be upon him is obviously one of the main belief.

Juan, the hadith cannot be guaranteed as preserved as Allah has promised only to safeguard the Quran.

Therefore, only after extensive research is a hadith accepted. In answer to your question, no, hadith are not flawless although the Prophet is.

Juan, the hadith cannot be guaranteed as preserved as Allah has promised only to safeguard the Quran.

Therefore, only after extensive research is a hadith accepted. In answer to your question, no, hadith are not flawless although the Prophet is.

I apologize for not being able to get my point out there. I wasn't attacking hadith I was just trying to cover all bases on what is considered Islam. It seems to be a tougher question than I thought. Is hadith considered part of Islam? If so per Blessing they are not flawless and could be considered a flaw. Personally I stick to my biggest flaw argument is people.

So far it's agreed that:

1) The Qur'an is the word of God, and has been preserved to this day

2) Hadith are not the preserved text, they are historical traditions and open to criticism; therefore they are not flawless

3) Muhammad pbuh was flawless; the Qur'an commands obedience to the Prophet, so if the Prophet was flawless and the Hadith are not flawless, surely there must be more Muslims should do in order to emulate Muhammad pbuh, more than reliance on the Hadith, right?

So I am really reiterating what juan said, the biggest flaw of the religion is the people. Therefore, can we dig deep and ask ourselves whether the things that we hear, read and see has really got anything to do with the actual message of the Qur'an? Or have we walked off on a certain tangent and lost touch with the root of our belief?

Blessing said that a hadith is accepted after an extensive research yet today there are people divided on the basis of hadiths. Is so much importance paid on the hadiths that we tend to ignore the Qur'an? Do we really use hadiths to interpret and understand the Qur'an better or are we unknowingly twisting the original message of the Qur'an so that it is brought in accord with a hadith? This in effect determines Sharia Law, and if our law is tangled up - boy oh boy, we sure are in a mess. If so, let's remind ourselves that the Qur'an is the only preserved book of guidance and it's way above the hadiths (the hadiths are not to be ignored, they undergo a critical analysis, but the Qur'an is much higher).

So that brings us to the following items:

1) Allah has promised only to safeguard the Qur'an. Hence, how should the Qur'an be read and interpreted? The miracle of the Qur'an is it's universality, it has a widespread applicability. Despite an increase in human knowledge, one generation to another have found the Qur'an relevant. Can we risk this eternal and universal attribute of the Qur'an?

2) The Hadith are not flawless - why? Because it tends to limit the Qur'an to a specific historical situation and that risks it's universality. That's not to say that we rush to conclude that all hadith are fabricated; it really means that one must guard himself from traditions that contradict with reason or empirical facts, and going against your personal right to reason and reflection as per the Qur'an verses:

Say: Travel through the Earth and see how Allah originated Creation 29:20

"...Tell [them], then, this story, so that they might take thought." (7:176)

"...Thus clearly do We spell out these messages unto people who think!" (10:24)

"...in this, behold, there is a message indeed for people who think!" (16:11)

"...so that thou might make clear unto mankind all that has ever been thus bestowed upon them, and that they might take thought." (16:44)

"...In all this, behold, there is a message indeed for people who think!" (16:69)

"...In [all] this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think!" (39:42)

"...And He has made subservient to you, [as a gift] from Himself, all that is in the heavens and on earth: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think!" (45:13)

"...And [all] such parables We propound unto men, so that they might [learn to] think." (59:21)


3) The Hadiths can be flawed and so they don't entirely live up to portraying the Prophet's example in full. But God constantly speaks to Muhammad in the Qur'an, commanding him to be steadfast, patience and to pray etc. So how can we primarily honour and respect the Prophet's sunnah? Well it is by being just as honest, steadfast, earnest and pious as him - that is not to say we should act exactly as he did because our circumstances are different, it is not healthy or normal for humans to act exactly like somebody else - that said, imitating the Prophet's honest nature enables us to be honest with ourselves and our circumstances.

This is all in light of juan's original question - what really makes Islam before pointing out the actual flaws. Then we can move onto the actual flaws and realize everybody is responsible for their own actions and must hold themselves accountable for it without pointing the finger at others - so the biggest flaw is the people not as the product of Islam but as a mispresentative of Islam. Which thus concludes blessing's statement: to understand true Islam, check out the Qur'an.

[Apologies for the lengthy post, I am in a hurry =)]

Peace and greetings

This post has been edited by bin't Zayd: May 28 2008, 08:18 AM

juan-Onlinetoenjoy I am trying to get a basis of what we all can agree on to what makes up Islam. One persons views is differnent from the next. I was saying that we all can agree that the Quran is part of Islam. I will even venture forth and say Mohammed is another part. Meaning his example and teachings. I ask about hadiths cause some might consider them part of Islam and others may not.

--> What all muslims will agree upon is that the qur'an represents islam...which is the reason i tried to rephrase my question!

So anybody rejects islam then there's a very good chance that the qur'an is being rejected! As such, i invite constructive criticism of the qur'an, and also "suggestions" as to what may have been different!

At the same time i am also open to direct complaints/suggestions pertaining to god!

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bin't zayd-Which thus concludes blessing's statement: to understand true Islam, check out the Qur'an.

--> So has anybody out here checked the qur'an (or true islam) and returned disappointed?

juan-Onlinetoenjoy I am trying to get a basis of what we all can agree on to what makes up Islam. One persons views is differnent from the next. I was saying that we all can agree that the Quran is part of Islam. I will even venture forth and say Mohammed is another part. Meaning his example and teachings. I ask about hadiths cause some might consider them part of Islam and others may not.

--> What all muslims will agree upon is that the qur'an represents islam...which is the reason i tried to rephrase my question!

So anybody rejects islam then there's a very good chance that the qur'an is being rejected! As such, i invite constructive criticism of the qur'an, and also "suggestions" as to what may have been different!

At the same time i am also open to direct complaints/suggestions pertaining to god!

________

bin't zayd-Which thus concludes blessing's statement: to understand true Islam, check out the Qur'an.

--> So has anybody out here checked the qur'an (or true islam) and returned disappointed?

How about not being able to get a "good" enough translation. I hear all the time I have the wrong translation or meaning. Why do I have to learn Arabic to get the real Quran. That to me limits it. Does the Quran say anything about praying 5 times a day?

Juan, the hadith cannot be guaranteed as preserved as Allah has promised only to safeguard the Quran.

Therefore, only after extensive research is a hadith accepted. In answer to your question, no, hadith are not flawless although the Prophet is.

I apologize for not being able to get my point out there. I wasn't attacking hadith I was just trying to cover all bases on what is considered Islam. It seems to be a tougher question than I thought. Is hadith considered part of Islam? If so per Blessing they are not flawless and could be considered a flaw. Personally I stick to my biggest flaw argument is people.

No worries, Juan, I know you weren't attacking
The basis of Islam is as Keekee said..the declaration of faith. Anything that contradicts the Quran is not part of Islam.

The Quran is not limited, rather it's our understanding. The reason you may have been told the translation is not quite correct is because arabic is such a broad language, in order to understand the quran fully in depth, you need to study arabic. However, for a brief overview, there really shouldn't be that much discrepancy between different translations.

I, personally, haven't come across any with 'wrong' translations. So, I don't understand why you were told that..perhaps you could enlighten us regarding the authors of the commentary?

Islam and its Quran are perfect. No constructive criticism is needed nor suggestions. Muslims however are not perfect. Humans are not infallible so this goes for people of all faiths.

This post has been edited by faithprayerandhope: May 28 2008, 02:18 PM

juan-How about not being able to get a "good" enough translation. I hear all the time I have the wrong translation or meaning. Why do I have to learn Arabic to get the real Quran. That to me limits it. Does the Quran say anything about praying 5 times a day?

--> Okay...so accessibility is one reason that keeps u away from the qur'an. Do u think god could have done something different there? If yes, what? And i am asking this in all earnesty.

Let us suppose that the qur'an needs or doesn't need u to pray 5 times a day...what would change for u?

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Islam and its Quran are perfect. No constructive criticism is needed nor suggestions. Muslims however are not perfect. Humans are not infallible so this goes for people of all faiths.

--> It has already been suggested by somebody that the flaws exist only in the minds...i am trying to understand in what ways!

Saying that humans are not perfect doesn't seem as a solution to me. If somebody knows that humans are imperfect then i can understand the disowning of muslims, but why refuse the qur'an for the incompetence of muslims?