Islam's Greatest Perceived Flaw(s) Options

How about not being able to get a "good" enough translation. I hear all the time I have the wrong translation or meaning. Why do I have to learn Arabic to get the real Quran. That to me limits it. Does the Quran say anything about praying 5 times a day?

Some translations are dated, they made more sense then than they did now, for an 'up to date' translation I'd suggest the "Poetic Quran" Which tries to carry the poeticness of the Quranic 3arabic into english, or Kalifa's translation. The poetic quran is the translation of one of the greatest Tasfir(Interpretation of quran with reasoning and commentary) ever built, while Kalifa is an Orthodox(non-denom) muslim so he tends to get into the meaning of the 3arabic.

In order to get the REAL quran though you have to learn 3arabic, only then can you know its true meaning for yourself. Relying on 3rd parties isnt a good idea, and that goes for everything.

--> Okay...so accessibility is one reason that keeps u away from the qur'an. Do u think god could have done something different there? If yes, what? And i am asking this in all earnesty.

Let us suppose that the qur'an needs or doesn't need u to pray 5 times a day...what would change for u?

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--> It has already been suggested by somebody that the flaws exist only in the minds...i am trying to understand in what ways!

Saying that humans are not perfect doesn't seem as a solution to me. If somebody knows that humans are imperfect then i can understand the disowning of muslims, but why refuse the qur'an for the incompetence of muslims?

Consider:

• non-muslims, usually from the West are familiar with the linear structure of a book. The Qur'an does not contain a linear structure neither does it provide a systematic portrayal of Prophet Muhammad's life (it only takes shape after much study). The Qur'an doesn't contain info, ideas and arguments about specific themes arranged in literary order which is why strangers to the Qur'an at first approach are perplexed by it.
• When approaching the Quran non-muslims, unlike muslims, don't bring with them items from the past 1400 years of History such as commentaries + interpretations of the Qur'an, traditions and stories of the prophet and his companions, nor their personal experience and expectations of Islam. So they tend to turn to Muslims for further info and may come across something that misrepresents Islam. It can be a book difficult to understand if it is read with the intention of negotiating for example non-muslims buying the translations of the Qur'an to see what motivated perpetrators of recent events. The problem is not with the translation itself but the approach. Do the math.
• Arrangement of the Qur'an is neither chronological nor thematic so for those who are used to reading in a sequential fashion, the Qur'an may prove to be frustrating...

The Qur'an in actual fact is not intended to be read sequentially. It's not a book of sciences, or a historical record, nor a book of morality only. It is a book to be practiced, it is to educate people intellectually and spiritually, and govern lives in both the individual and social realm. Therefore, this book can be understood by practicing it in the daily life or coupling a personal study of the book with personal experiences. To be honest, seperating the Qur'an from practical life means reducing the Quran to just a book to be read. If it's approached as just a book to be read, it doesn't unfold much.

juan-How about not being able to get a "good" enough translation. I hear all the time I have the wrong translation or meaning. Why do I have to learn Arabic to get the real Quran. That to me limits it. Does the Quran say anything about praying 5 times a day?

--> Okay...so accessibility is one reason that keeps u away from the qur'an. Do u think god could have done something different there? If yes, what? And i am asking this in all earnesty.
Ok yes I do think that a greater superior being could make a holy book for everyone one of his/her creations to understand. Do you understand this point. I don't mean from intense study either, I mean simple enough for everyone in thier own language to understand.
Let us suppose that the qur'an needs or doesn't need u to pray 5 times a day...what would change for u?
Honestly nothing. My point here was to show that if the Quran does not say to pray five times a day by Mohammed did then his actions would be considered part of Islam. Hence if Mohammed did do them in accordance to the wishes of God then why not say so in the Quran. So then I seem to think the Quran isn't whole.
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Islam and its Quran are perfect. No constructive criticism is needed nor suggestions. Muslims however are not perfect. Humans are not infallible so this goes for people of all faiths.

--> It has already been suggested by somebody that the flaws exist only in the minds...i am trying to understand in what ways!Sounds prideful. Especially since humans are part of the religion.

Saying that humans are not perfect doesn't seem as a solution to me. If somebody knows that humans are imperfect then i can understand the disowning of muslims, but why refuse the qur'an for the incompetence of muslims?

Now this isn't going to sound fair really but it is the truth. Non muslims will judge the Quran without ever picking it up by the actions of the general public of Muslims. Yes you may say this isn't fair but The Ummah is a representitive of the Quran. How else really is a non muslim going to know anything about Islam without reading the Quran. They sit back and watch the followers. Everyone does it.

^Well that's very unfair isn't it?

Say we have two 'muslim' groups.

Muslim A and Muslim B.

Group A is preaching hatred and is demanding Jihad on the UK.

Group B is preaching peace and for everyone to work together in harmony.

They both call themselves muslims, pray five times a day and what not. Which group is correct? How would you know unless you did consult the Quran?

It all really does boil down to one thing, ignorance. Yes, it's true. No one can be asked to do the real research-'let's just follow the norm.'

'Ive heard muslims oppress their women'
'yes that must be true 'coz I've seen it too!'

Rumours?

How about we study the Quran?

I really do wish people would stop judging on account of a few or even the majority...we have been given brains to do our OWN research and make our own way. That's exactly what I do. So, no, not everyone judges a religion on the basis of people who *claim* to follow it.

^Well that's very unfair isn't it?

Say we have two 'muslim' groups.

Muslim A and Muslim B.

Group A is preaching hatred and is demanding Jihad on the UK.

Group B is preaching peace and for everyone to work together in harmony.

They both call themselves muslims, pray five times a day and what not. Which group is correct? How would you know unless you did consult the Quran?

It all really does boil down to one thing, ignorance. Yes, it's true. No one can be asked to do the real research-'let's just follow the norm.'

'Ive heard muslims oppress their women'
'yes that must be true 'coz I've seen it too!'

Rumours?

How about we study the Quran?

I really do wish people would stop judging on account of a few or even the majority...we have been given brains to do our OWN research and make our own way. That's exactly what I do. So, no, not everyone judges a religion on the basis of people who *claim* to follow it.

But both group A and group B find thier rights in the Quran correct?
Group A is preaching Jihadi this and that quoting verses from the Quran.
Group B is preaching against this and also quoting different verses from the Quran.
Now both of them are using the same Holy book for justification how is an outsider suppose to know who is right?
I also said it wasn't fair ahead of time.
Group Americans A lets go to war
Group Americans B lets stop all wars
How is America looked at around the world? Let me give you a guess its not the nice one. It happens all the time.

Both groups 'claim' to follow the book, yet they obviously don't. There is a pure contradiction and the truth is only revealed when one does research for themselves. And about the America thing, well then you should know it isn't right to judge.

But to be fair, the leader of America (Bush) supports war so..

Whereas the leader of Islam (prophet) doesn't promote violence so..

Both scenarios are settled.

bin't zayd-

--> I understand what u are saying (or so i feel), but it does not address my point. Any attempt to reply to ur well thought out post would only take this off-topic, so i will let it pass!

Like i remarked, when somebody "knows" that islam is being misrepresented, why choose to not give it more consideration?

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juan-Ok yes I do think that a greater superior being could make a holy book for everyone one of his/her creations to understand. Do you understand this point. I don't mean from intense study either, I mean simple enough for everyone in thier own language to understand.

--> Better still, maybe a personalized copy for each?

juan-My point here was to show that if the Quran does not say to pray five times a day by Mohammed did then his actions would be considered part of Islam. Hence if Mohammed did do them in accordance to the wishes of God then why not say so in the Quran. So then I seem to think the Quran isn't whole.

-->Okay. And if it turns out that qur'an does not mention prayers 5 times a day, and there are no 5 times a day prayers...would u deem the qur'an more complete?

juan-Sounds prideful. Especially since humans are part of the religion

--> Hmmm...looking at that statement from the qur'an's pov, it does seem acceptable. Else, yes, does look arrogant.

juan-Now this isn't going to sound fair really but it is the truth. Non muslims will judge the Quran without ever picking it up by the actions of the general public of Muslims. Yes you may say this isn't fair but The Ummah is a representitive of the Quran. How else really is a non muslim going to know anything about Islam without reading the Quran. They sit back and watch the followers. Everyone does it.

--> How about u? I guess u are better informed...have u read the qur'an?

Both groups 'claim' to follow the book, yet they obviously don't. There is a pure contradiction and the truth is only revealed when one does research for themselves. And about the America thing, well then you should know it isn't right to judge.

But to be fair, the leader of America (Bush) supports war so..

Whereas the leader of Islam (prophet) doesn't promote violence so..

Both scenarios are settled.

Who is the modern day leader of Islam? Doesn't each sect have a spiritual leader they follow? I mean we can't compare past and present. If that is the case I can say the leader of America Jimmy Carter doesn't support war. Only problem is he isn't the one giving orders or influencing people today. Same for Islam. One can say yes the prophet was a peace loving man and there is many sources to prove this but he is not the ones that people are listening to and getting their advice from. If so then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all would be case closed.

Like i remarked, when somebody "knows" that islam is being misrepresented, why choose to not give it more consideration?

We seem to have two different topics here - one about what makes up Islam; and the other is when somebody knows Islam is being misrepresented why not give it more consideration? By this, do you mean why should they be reluctant to accept the Qur’an? Or do you mean, why can’t they be willing to learn the truth about the religion?

These questions have many explanations - when it comes to accepting the Qur’an you have to also consider there are other scriptures that people will take under consideration for example the Bible or Torah, or else how will they know which is the true scripture? And if the followers of Islam are claiming it to be the perfect religion, it bears a bigger challenge for the religion to prove it’s perfect so that is why non-Muslims will take one step back, observe and evaluate the religion before making a decision, bearing in mind that they have other scriptures and possibilities out on the table to consider as well. Now that relates to my previous posts.

Like i remarked, when somebody "knows" that islam is being misrepresented, why choose to not give it more consideration?

We seem to have two different topics here - one about what makes up Islam; and the other is when somebody knows Islam is being misrepresented why not give it more consideration? By this, do you mean why should they be reluctant to accept the Qur'an? Or do you mean, why can't they be willing to learn the truth about the religion?

These questions have many explanations - when it comes to accepting the Qur'an you have to also consider there are other scriptures that people will take under consideration for example the Bible or Torah, or else how will they know which is the true scripture? And if the followers of Islam are claiming it to be the perfect religion, it bears a bigger challenge for the religion to prove it's perfect so that is why non-Muslims will take one step back, observe and evaluate the religion before making a decision, bearing in mind that they have other scriptures and possibilities out on the table to consider as well. Now that relates to my previous posts.

Thank you Binty. You said that a muslim will claim Islam to be perfect and a non muslim will take one step back is sooooo true. First thought to my mind is anything that has humans in it isn't perfect. There is two other religions out there that bear similiar resembelance to Islam, but only Islam is perfect? Thank you for clearing that up. Onto your other post part. For this same reason people(non muslims) will not take the Quran as face value as being perfect. Also I would like to touch on your point of when someone knows when Islam is being misrepresented. As a non muslim and very ignorant at one time I can say we don't know that it is being misrepresented most of the time. We assume that the actions of Muslims come from the Quran. It wasn't until my time on Mo that I even knew about Hadith. I have to say for this reason is why many non muslims will not pick up the Quran and read it. They look at the people and say hey look that is what the Quran teaches. It also seems that I am the only non muslim willing to give into this thread at this time, so I will be more than happy to doll out my P.O.V..

bin't zayd-We seem to have two different topics here - one about what makes up Islam

--> I am more interested in what people (muslims & non-muslims) *think* makes up islam...and the subsequent flaws they perceive

and the other is when somebody knows Islam is being misrepresented why not give it more consideration? By this, do you mean why should they be reluctant to accept the Qur'an? Or do you mean, why can't they be willing to learn the truth about the religion?

--> Not meaning to target juan, but he seems to be pretty aware that islam is being misrepresented! i am interested in knowing what people like him have to say concerning the qur'an which, as somebody put it, represents the true islam! i know it's not that simple, but, still, what is their overall take on the text called the qur'an!

This post has been edited by onlinetoenjoy: May 31 2008, 05:27 AM

I've only read some of the Qur'an, but it seems to repeatedly describe God's wrath towards unbelievers. I don't understand this. Why would God be angry at them? He has unlimited power, unlimited knowledge, and he created everything. So surely he must have created the world knowing exactly that some people would not believe in him. We can only assume that since God cannot make a mistake, and that he chose to allow disbelief for good reason. If disbelievers exist for good reason, then why should he be angry with them? For isn't it only through his will that they disbelieve?

emilygreen-I've only read some of the Qur'an, but it seems to repeatedly describe God's wrath towards unbelievers.

--> While the god of qur'an does threaten the unbelievers with its wrath, it also promises forgiveness to those who repent and cease to associate! So the gate of mercy is always accessible to one seeking the way!

Also, i am not sure if believing alone is sufficient, most of the times "good deeds" are also demanded! I am not inclined to get into this at the moment!

emilygreen-I don't understand this. Why would God be angry at them? He has unlimited power, unlimited knowledge, and he created everything. So surely he must have created the world knowing exactly that some people would not believe in him. We can only assume that since God cannot make a mistake, and that he chose to allow disbelief for good reason. If disbelievers exist for good reason, then why should he be angry with them? For isn't it only through his will that they disbelieve?

--> I can offer these verses:

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7.172. And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware;

7.173. Or lest ye should say: (It is) only (that) our fathers ascribed partners to Allah of old and we were (their) seed after them. Wilt Thou destroy us on account of that which those who follow falsehood did?

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From 7.172 it does appear that before being put forth on earth, all had testified to the sovereignty of god! i think there are other verses which state that subservience to god is innate to humans! And v 173 seems to be an assertion of this!

The question then would be: *why* did god give us this responsibility? would it not have been wiser, and more just, on its part to have not burdened us thus? Perhaps, the following verse might be relevant:

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33.72. Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.

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From 33.72 it seems that v assumed this of our own accord!

I don't know whether anything i offered helped, but that's what i am offering at the moment!

Again, i don't intend to be an apologist for god: if it exists it should be a sufficient defender unto itself!

Again, i don't intend to be an apologist for god: if it exists it should be a sufficient defender unto itself!

Of course, God needs no justification for his actions. My personal confusion over these issues is by no means an attempt to accuse my creator. That would be rather silly.

I havent read the crap in this thread - But i'll just post something random.

1) The Quran defends itself, Even those who try to take it out of context fail. I can pick up the bible and bring forth any hatred i please, the same with any other book.But on closer inspection you will be able to see the errors.

2) Bla bla bla.

This post has been edited by kellyjaz: Jun 7 2008, 08:23 AM

emilygreen-Of course, God needs no justification for his actions. My personal confusion over these issues is by no means an attempt to accuse my creator. That would be rather silly.

--> : thumbs up :

And u have made a very interesting point: god needs no justification for its actions!

I'll give it a swing:

As a humanist, I don't personally believe that any holy book contains god's thoughts. I think that they contain inspired, possibly divinely inspired, human thoughts about divinity and life, morality and conduct. After all, we are only referring to a human world here. That's all we know. And I don't say this out of complete ignorance, although I plead ignorance anyway. I spent the first half of my life kissing the torah every Saturday morning and studying it the rest of the week.

I can read small sections of the Koran per sitting but I just can't stay with it after a while. I can't bear the image of god it casts yet it fascinates me. It's a god that is all too human. A god who's love is conditional and therefore quite imperfect. Quite flawed. Because love, as I know it, in it's higher form, does not create conditions. It is just love that, if anything, frees us from the conditions we have place upon ourselves and each other. One can witness this in humans. It's incredibly courageous. But one thing for sure, it never punishes. It doesn't need to. Ever. Yet, like any profound set of ideas, a holy text has a great potential for inspiration for those who know how to use it wisely and who want, seriously want, to seek inspiration. And that's what I seek.

The concepts of perfect and flawed create an interesting dialogue. What is perfect? What is flawed? I would venture that in this situation, perfect means completely true, and the complete transmission of god's ideas and wishes. It can withstand scrutiny, like a theory can be demonstrated through replication in different environments and with different factors. Flawed means constructed in human thinking and unable to withstand scrutiny and not repeatable under every circumstance.

Something perfect does not evolve. There is no need for evolution in that case. It is ultimate, inviolable and whole unto itself. Does god evolve or is he completely whole unto himself? How do we know this?

I believe that true knowing comes through direct experience. That knowing isn't perfect because, like everything else, it is interpreted through our personal consciousness. We can't step out of that.

Bottom line, if something is flawed but it speaks deeply to us and contributes richly to our lives, is it not of great value? If the spirit within us inspires us to create, to write, to communicate something inspired and universal, is that whole unto itself?

In this vast, unfathomable universe, I see Islam as a religion with its strengths and weaknesses. Like everything else, it contributes to our world positively and negatively. But one thing is for sure, I don't believe Islam as a religion exists without people. Like I've said before, without humans, a religion is just books and buildings.

This post has been edited by murkylight: Jun 7 2008, 12:32 PM

murkylight-As a humanist, I don't personally believe that any holy book contains god's thoughts. I think that they contain inspired, possibly divinely inspired, human thoughts about divinity and life, morality and conduct.

--> If it doesn't contain god's thoughts, how can it possibly be divinely inspired? Or are u using "divine" to denote excellence?

What do u perceive to be islam's greatest flaw(s)?

None, alhamdulillah.

People is Islams greatest flaw.

thats quite an illogical statement.

How can people be considered a flaw in Islam? Or maybe you meant to say "human nature". but even that does not make sense.