Scholar Responses Like This Bother Me (domestic Abuse) Options

[Nazia1987]

I stumbled across this while looking for some answers about talaq.

http://askthescholar.com/question-details.aspx?qstID=2473

In this story, a man is asking one scholar about a situation. He and his wife went home, began arguing, and he gets angry and begans beating her, in his words (physically abusing her very badly). I will add that he mentions she is pregnant with his fourth child when he does this . Then she comes back and lashed out at him with a belt. He bits her back and yells at her talaq talaq talaq and is now worried it was legal as he does not really want to divorce.

When the scholar replied, he didn't really say anything like "you are not allowed to hit your wife, etc". Yes he points out, the best of you is those who treat your wives kindly, etc. But he doesn't say anything about this.

These things worry me. In the US, if I were to write to somebody and say "my bf beat me very badly, etc" they would say, leave him and go to the police. When I ask people over and over they say, no your husband is not allowed to hit you, etc. But I see so much domestic abuse in the Islamic world (Yes I know there is domestic abuse in the western world also but I am not talking about that).

What bothers me is just the... response to this man. It's so hard to stomach as a westerner that somebody can be so casual about physical abuse as to say "try hard not to let it happen next time." It makes me confused on can a man really hit me or not? Or is it just the response of apologists who make it sound like its not permissible?

Anybody?

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: Dec 8 2010, 06:15 PM

[ayesha.ansari]

Islam doesn't allow this type of act from a person to his wife. ALLAH gave the message of peace and love.

[rizwan]

When the scholar replied, he didn't really say anything like "you are not allowed to hit your wife, etc". Yes he points out, the best of you is those who treat your wives kindly, etc. But he doesn't say anything about this.

not being permitted to hit ur wife is so obvious that it goes without saying.

[Nazia1987]

When the scholar replied, he didn't really say anything like "you are not allowed to hit your wife, etc". Yes he points out, the best of you is those who treat your wives kindly, etc. But he doesn't say anything about this.

not being permitted to hit ur wife is so obvious that it goes without saying.

I went to my imam last night to ask him about this and he had a differenst story. He told me hitting your wife should not be a normal every day thing, only when she is out of control (in his words an example of say, not listening to any advices) and the man doesn't wish to divorce and of course has gone through the proper steps, sleeping in a separate bed, etc. The whole conversation made me queasy. I don't want to get married.

I think the reason why this stood out to me though is because, there are all these stupid letters that have to do with "i have a girlfriend, i have a boyfriend, etc" and even when the question isn't related to that, there is usually a huge page long response explaining how the asker is doing something against Islam.

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: Dec 9 2010, 02:22 PM

[rizwan]

its interesting, this exact topic was being discussed by the speaker at mosque today, the myths surrounding women and islam.

hitting women is still unacceptable. there is no justification for it, and any "justification" is only a manipulation or a false interpretation. the prophet never hit his wives, so if we consider ourselves followers of the prophet, then likewise men have no right to do so either.

[Nazia1987]

its interesting, this exact topic was being discussed by the speaker at mosque today, the myths surrounding women and islam.

hitting women is still unacceptable. there is no justification for it, and any "justification" is only a manipulation or a false interpretation. the prophet never hit his wives, so if we consider ourselves followers of the prophet, then likewise men have no right to do so either.

How else can you interpret 4:34? I'm asking because do you speak Arabic? If you do then please interpret it for me. But it seems fairly black and white. Even if the Prophet never hit his wives, does his lifestyle then trump what is in the Qur'an? How could that possibly be?

Similarly I am always told he never hit Aisha but then is this hadith from Sahih Muslim:
Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2127:

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ''A''isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah''s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi''. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ''A''isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi'' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

This is also from the Prophet's farewell address:
"You have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not with severity. If they refrain from these things and obey you, they have right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are your wards having no control of their persons."

[Killed Bill]

Tabatabai says that the word "AND" is not used at its logical form of a conjunction but rather used within the context.

the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear recalcitrance, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places, and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. {35}

First admonish them, then leave them alone in their sleeping places, and then beat them (if all else fails)

Beating in the sense is not to hurt, but to express discontent. Like when a mother hits her child, the child begins to cry. Not from the pain, but rather the fact that he has been hit for doing something he should not have. I believe that this law is for that particular thing. To hurt a wife is wrong, to hurt anyone is wrong for that matter.

If it will help the relationship, I believe it should be done.

[Nazia1987]

So essentially, Islam gives complete control and dominance to men.

[rizwan]

in the lecture i was hearing, the interpretation of 4:34 indicated that the word translated to 'beat' (from which the root word is daraba) also translates to 'separate' or 'to part' and other usages of this word in the quran favour the latter meanings, so we apply the latter meaning to this verse also, although i haven't checked this myself so if im mistaken then let me know.

so in this instance, if there is some trouble caused by the wife, the man is advised to admonish her; sleep in a separate room and subsequently part from her. it makes no sense to advise him to hit her, as that will only increase the tension further.

the hadith about aisha telling the world she got hit by the prophet, it quite clearly goes against the quran. the prophet is an example for the believers, and wouldn't ever fail to comply with the quran so i can't accept it.

the problem with this myth of the permissibility of wife beating is that not only is it raised by non-muslims, but it is perpetuated from within islamic circles which is the real shame.

[Nazia1987]

in the lecture i was hearing, the interpretation of 4:34 indicated that the word translated to 'beat' (from which the root word is daraba) also translates to 'separate' or 'to part' and other usages of this word in the quran favour the latter meanings, so we apply the latter meaning to this verse also, although i haven't checked this myself so if im mistaken then let me know.

so in this instance, if there is some trouble caused by the wife, the man is advised to admonish her; sleep in a separate room and subsequently part from her. it makes no sense to advise him to hit her, as that will only increase the tension further.

the hadith about aisha telling the world she got hit by the prophet, it quite clearly goes against the quran. the prophet is an example for the believers, and wouldn't ever fail to comply with the quran so i can't accept it.

the problem with this myth of the permissibility of wife beating is that not only is it raised by non-muslims, but it is perpetuated from within islamic circles which is the real shame.

Rizwan I wish I could believe you but I just can not. For example, you say its raised by non-Muslims but it was my imam who confirmed it. I also see it confirmed by many scholars. The prophet also addressed this in his farewell address like I posted above. Similarly you say you dismiss the hadith but it comes from sahih muslim, which is the 2nd most authentic book of hadith so I am told. (this is why I don't really care much for hadith)

the thing that gets me is that it always seems like "if the woman is causing problems then this" but what about when the man is causing problems? I feel like everyone just telsl me "she has the right to divorce him" which is true. But similarly he has the right to divorce her. I feel like the wife doesn't have any power in a situation where her husband is being bad other than simiply stay with it and endure or to divorce and leave. yet the husband has all these rights

this really bothers me. like i said rizwan i wish i could believe you. i used to believe this same things but time and time again it just seems like... its so clear that this is allowed