A Question For An Athiest Options

[Killed Bill]

For me it is clear my meaning in life, I dont worry about this.

But what is the meaning for your life? Do you aspire to get a nice house, car, job, respect? What then?

[Emilygreen]

If by meaning you mean purpose, then it's to contribute to the happiness of others and end any unecessary suffering. This is the ideal of course. Atheists certainly have selfish motivations too. But the main goal is to use whatever talents available to make a better world for everyone else.

[Killed Bill]

Well I am assuming that thats YOUR purpose and not every other athiests.

So you are telling me the ultimate pleasure in the world is to make other people happy? Even if you yourself are deprived of having more pleasure?

[Emilygreen]

Both individual and group happiness are important. Helping others leads to a lasting feeling of joy and fufillment. Individual happiness brings short term pleasure and is necessary to function in a productive way. However, any benefits received from personal pursuits die with the person, so individual pleasures have no extended purpose.

This post has been edited by Emilygreen: Oct 27 2009, 01:25 AM

[Killed Bill]

However, any benefits received from personal pursuits die with the person, so individual pleasures have no extended purpose.

Extended pleasures (of helping others) also die because they die.

Individual pleasures can be attained through higher quantities and can be argued that they have better qualities. That being the case is it sane for someone to drug themselves up and go around terrorising little kids, simply because that gives me them pleasure?

[Emilygreen]

Extended pleasures (of helping others) also die because they die.

It's true that eventually everything dies. The sun will burn out and the universe will become dark, lifeless, and cold. All of our good deeds won't matter in the end. But this isn't so bad. Our good deeds matter now, and hopefully will have positive effects on future generations too. In 10 years all of us will have forgotten our feelings at this moment. We will have forgotten if we were sad or happy today. This doesn't mean that we should go ahead and feel depressed all the time, because in ten years it won't matter. What's really imortant is how we feel in the present and in the future. It doesn't matter that it won't matter a billion years from now. Well I'm sure that made no sense at all. This point of view must seem very unappealing to someone who is expecting an eternal paradise after death. Well I will go ahead and admitt that I like your story better too. I would much rather live in a beautiful utopia than turn into worm food. Unfortunately, what we want doesn't always turn out to be true.

Individual pleasures can be attained through higher quantities and can be argued that they have better qualities. That being the case is it sane for someone to drug themselves up and go around terrorising little kids, simply because that gives me them pleasure?

I don't understand what you mean by better and higher qualities. If you think that taking drugs is better than spending time with a loving family or having fun with friends, then I would question your sanity. Any momentary pleasure gained by doing drugs or harrassing children would be grealty outweighed by the damage and suffering these actions would cause.

[Killed Bill]

It's true that eventually everything dies. The sun will burn out and the universe will become dark, lifeless, and cold. All of our good deeds won't matter in the end. But this isn't so bad. Our good deeds matter now, and hopefully will have positive effects on future generations too. In 10 years all of us will have forgotten our feelings at this moment. We will have forgotten if we were sad or happy today. This doesn't mean that we should go ahead and feel depressed all the time, because in ten years it won't matter. What's really imortant is how we feel in the present and in the future. It doesn't matter that it won't matter a billion years from now. Well I'm sure that made no sense at all. This point of view must seem very unappealing to someone who is expecting an eternal paradise after death. Well I will go ahead and admitt that I like your story better too. I would much rather live in a beautiful utopia than turn into worm food. Unfortunately, what we want doesn't always turn out to be true.

My point I don't understand is where you extract this belief that we should live our lives to help others. At the end of the day we all die. I could save a million people and the next day im dead, it's all over. Why do I care I saved those peope (not to suggest that saving someone is stupid, just an example)

Why do I care if I give the begger the penny or not. He dies and so do I.

I don't understand what you mean by better and higher qualities. If you think that taking drugs is better than spending time with a loving family or having fun with friends, then I would question your sanity. Any momentary pleasure gained by doing drugs or harrassing children would be grealty outweighed by the damage and suffering these actions would cause.

Why not? Drugs gives immediate pleasure, is pleasure not our ultimate goal in life?

Where is this scale that you bring in? Is it God?

In a world with no laws, there is no such thing as damage.

[Emilygreen]

My point I don't understand is where you extract this belief that we should live our lives to help others. At the end of the day we all die. I could save a million people and the next day im dead, it's all over. Why do I care I saved those peope (not to suggest that saving someone is stupid, just an example)

The happiness of others is important to our own happiness. This is a result of being a socially dependent animal. Even after all our personal needs and wants are met, if the people around us are miserable, then we won't be completely happy. When we're dead we won't care, but we will while we're still alive, and that's what's important to us anyways.

I have a feeling that this won't satisfy you. You want a solid reason as to why we should help others, besides just wanting to see them happy. I don't have the solid, objective reason that you want. I recognize that in a couple of billion years nothing will matter. In about 70 years nothing will matter to me. This is a price I pay for being an atheist. I don't necessarily like it, but accept it nevertheless. And it isn't as bad as it first seems. It doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want, because things do matter right here and now. Also based on shared values, i.e. common desires that almost all humans have, love, security, peace, etc., we can set up a system of morality that is objective based on these values, although it can't go any deeper. For instance, if we all agree that humans should be happy, which most healthy humans do believe, then we can avoid certain behaviors that don't make humans happy..like torturing children. This isn't up for debate. Torturing children doesn't make people happy, objectively! See how that works? It's a bit complicated, and I don't know if I'm explaining it very clearly. It's a bit like setting up a coordinate system in math. There's no reason to pick one set of coordinates over another, but once you pick a system, you've got to make accurate measurements based on your choice.

Why not? Drugs gives immediate pleasure, is pleasure not our ultimate goal in life?

Pleasure is not our ultimate goal in life, happiness is. As you may agree, pleasure doesn't always lead to happiness. Drugs don't make you happy in the long run.

Where is this scale that you bring in? Is it God?

I don't understand what scale you are talking about.

In a world with no laws, there is no such thing as damage.

There are laws, but they are human created.

[lewhitman]

I live life in relation to those around me. The meaning of my life is the meanings I give it, what those around me give it by creating relationships with me such as friendships, romances, or family connects. Also, my contribution to those left after I die gives meaning to my life. This could be something like curing cancer or something as simple as making someone smile on a gloomy day. Life's meaning is life itself and everything that goes with it.