Religion Options

[Atheist1]

Hey I believe that religion is destroying the world and is responsible for most of the worlds problems. I think that it's a total waste of time and that people use religion for their own advantage (which is very weak) Religion is an ancient belief and has no place in a modern age. (especially Islam) I am not hating but I just cannot grasp how people can be so mislead on a massive scale by something that isn't real??!
I mean who has actually seen any signs of these gods or prophets etc? I think people can be truly good people but this has nothing to do with religion, in fact i've come across some very hateful, evil, wierd people in life and most of it is in the name of religion!
That's my opinion, however I respect other peoples opinions and beliefs - unless they believe that forcing religion on people is ok. (Islam tends to do this) why do Muslims outcast members of family etc if they have a different idea on life? This goes on everyday and in my opinion is the worst thing any human being can do to another - effectively controlling/restricting their lives.

Thanks

[NOSHADYLADY4]

Atheist1:

The worlds problems are the makings and doings of MEN not religion. Most people use religion as the scapegoat for whats happening in the world or in their lives. People have a choice in what they want to do.

And just who are you to place any religion, especially Islam in any category? Islam is a religion and a way of life. People can choose to live it or leave it. But they can;t make it go away. People mislead people. Religion does not. It does exactly what it was created to do. Which means people can find it, live it or leave it.

There are good and bad people in anything...even atheism.

I mean who has actually seen any signs of these gods or prophets etc?

You know. this is toooo easy...The people who saw the prophets are obviously deceased...hello! Up to teh last 2000 years. It is not a matter of seeing the prophets in this day and age, it is a matter of faith that their God would not lie. And since you do not believe in God anyway, then I can understand why you would say that.

Islam does not force itself on anuthing or anyone, people do. And if the people of Islam that do use force in telling others about Islam did not understand Allah's word as:

Sura 2: 256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion."
Allah also says: “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 99]

So it is people who force Islam on others. They are only to tell people, they cannot put Islam in no ones heart.


AS FOR OUTCASTING FAMILY:

Islam does not condone cutting ties with family. Its a culture thing not Islam. Allah says:

"And give to the relative his right." [Soorah al-Israa' 17:26]

Allaah - the most high - also said:

"And worship Allaah alone, and do not set-up any partner to Him in worship,
and be kind and good to the parents, and to the relatives." [Soorah an-Nisaa 4:36]

The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam also said: "Whosoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day let him keep the ties of relations."

'Abdullaah Ibn 'Amr (radiyallaahu 'anhu) relates that the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "The waaasil (one who keeps the ties of relations) is not the one who merely does so out of reciprocation. Rather, the waasil is the one who, even when the relatives cut-off him, yet he still maintains ties with them."

So please get your facts straight before you pass judgment and say things about Islam that you cannot back up.

And what you call " effectively controlling/restricting their lives." I call discipline, which not many people like to have these day in their lives.

[Atheist1]

Well of course all these problems are created by man, but most of it is in the name of religion! Religions divide people to the point where war has broke out! And it's all supposed to be peaceful?! And of course there are good and bad people in every walk of life, however religion is a major catalyst, just look what's going on in the world, religion has a lot to answer for.
I am not blaming everything on religion but it certainly doesn't help. Discipline can be achieved without having to follow a god that was supposed to be around 2000 years ago. People are good people, no thanks to religion.
I don't think that Islam is religion, I think it is a culture. I think it's very manipulative, controlling, unfair and oppressive - or that's how "man" has twisted it - for his own gain.
It is compulsive for most people as it's indoctrinated into children who have no choice! Thinking they are going to hell or whatever if you do wrong. Its an ancient method of social control which sadly and suprisingly is still popular today.

You know. this is toooo easy...The people who saw the prophets are obviously deceased...hello! Up to the last 2000 years. It is not a matter of seeing the prophets in this day and age, it is a matter of faith that their God would not lie.

I'm sorry but this to me is very sad! How do you know? Lol

3:85 “Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

What about this one? Do you think this is a good example to follow? Or should that just be forgotten about ? Shall people listen to certain verses and not others?

This post has been edited by juan: Nov 18 2009, 04:10 AM

[juan]

Well of course all these problems are created by man, but most of it is in the name of religion! Religions divide people to the point where war has broke out! And it's all supposed to be peaceful?! And of course there are good and bad people in every walk of life, however religion is a major catalyst, just look what's going on in the world, religion has a lot to answer for.
I am not blaming everything on religion but it certainly doesn't help. Discipline can be achieved without having to follow a god that was supposed to be around 2000 years ago. People are good people, no thanks to religion.
I don't think that Islam is religion, I think it is a culture. I think it's very manipulative, controlling, unfair and oppressive - or that's how "man" has twisted it - for his own gain.
It is compulsive for most people as it's indoctrinated into children who have no choice! Thinking they are going to hell or whatever if you do wrong. Its an ancient method of social control which sadly and suprisingly is still popular today.

The underlined statement is false. Greed is what motivates evil in this world, not religion. A religious person without greed is the good people you speak of in the bold print. Yes thanks to religion. You have narrowed religion down to just Islam here, but do you believe Ghandi would of been the same man if he didn't have his religion for his guide? Do you believe Hitler would of been the same man if he actually believed in a religion and followed it without greed?

Now the red statement. At least you said you think. This shows ignorance, but you are aware of such ignorance. Its part of why you have found this site. Stick around you will learn the difference between Islam as a religious practice vs pseudo Islam( which is the cultural influence you speak of).

Your Surah quote will be answered shortly. For a useful hint though. In the future please post the Surah before and the Surah after the one that you are questioning. This will be evident later to you as people go to explain it for you.

One last thing. My partner hates double posting. Triple posters she breaks legs. So next time please if you have an updates to add to a comment just edit the original post. Thanks.

[Atheist1]

No it's not false, it's my opinion. I'm entitled to it thankfully. But if we had sharia law in the west then I would not be able to have it.

So basically you are blaming all the evil in the world on lack of religion as if it will prevent evil?! But before it was mentioned that it was "mans" fault not religions? When somebody does good - it's because he is religious or if he does wrong it's because he wasn't religious! It's so closed minded it's quite funny! So a person in your mind has to be religious to be good? There are good people who aren't religious - did you not know this?

Islam demands respect but does not respect others - the verse I quoted proves that. How can anyone justify or even follow an instruction to kill non believers? This is evil!
But as usual you will probably twist it up into what suits you at a particular time! It's just one big contradiction !

This post has been edited by Atheist1: Nov 18 2009, 06:38 AM

[NOSHADYLADY4]

It ia so sad that people that do not like religion can quote other peolles religion with knowledge of the information. Religion in its own right is what it was designed to be. It should not be blamed for what people choose to do or act. It is God that gives a person the ability to be good. People choose religion as a way to stay focused on the Creator among many other things. People who choose not to believe in God will have to answer to His regardless if they believe or disbelieve.

YOU-

I don't think that Islam is religion, I think it is a culture. I think it's very manipulative, controlling, unfair and oppressive -

You've got it...you don't think, nor investigate. Many people have tried to disregard Islam and the Prophet for many years, it hasn't disappeared nor will it until God makes it so. And whether people accept it or not, it isn't hurting not one person who does believe it.

YOU-

How do you know? Lol

I know because I have faith in my Creator. And just how is that YOU do not know? OOPS... atheists do not believe in God..my bad!! Thank Allah for Religion!!!

As for the Ayah(verse) you quoted:

[Should people who have no clue about Islam History have the audacity to try and quote information they do not know the meaning of? Hellllo]

Islam History 101

FYI- This ayah(verse)3:85 means that no other religion remains on earth by which Allah can be worshipped except Islam as Islam does NOT associate partners with Allah. Islam does NOT attribute family to Allah nor does Islam disregard Allah's existence, and His Power and Majesty.

FYI: Sura 9:5,29,41).
(5)These ayat was referring to the people during the Prophets time! It was a part of the history between the Muslims and the idolators. When Islam was proclaimed, the meccans were given 4 months to comply and not make mischief, kill infants alive, and many other horrendous acts. Those who did not comply with the new treaty after 4 month and go on making mischief, THEN they were to be caiught and dealt with. BUT if they comply with the treaty, then they were to be released, by Allah's orders.
(29) Allah ordered the Prophet and new muslims to fight those who still kept up mischief, worshipped idols, persecuted the poor and slaves, who do not believe in God(The Idolators) or the last day, and those who did not stop doing things that were prohibited. And if they did not do this and still wanted to be protected by the muslims, they had to pay taxes whether they wanted to or not. Eventually Islam was accepted and established in the land. And mecca and surrounding areas became muslim. And it was not out of force and free killing that the people believed.
(41) This ayah meant that the muslim should strive in the cause of Allah through war or adversity with whatever they have(their money, health, life,), it also means that a muslim should do his duty to Allah and partake in battles, give charity, do good, help others, travel to other places spreading Islam, etc.

Atheist1-you should try to learn the history of Islam before you try to quote it, it only shows just how ignorant people can be about Islam. It would also help to NOT mix the verses to your advantage in trying to prove something.

We do not choose one ayat over another and accept what we want to hear. Most of the ayahs were pertaining to the time of the Prophet and "people " took it to mean what they wanted it to me just as you are doing. My understanding of these verses are clear. The majority know what to do and what not to do according to Qur'an...in this day and time.

[Atheist1]

I will never have to answer to any god. I will live life then die - that's it. I'm sorry but your answers and explanations to these quotes are exactly what I expected. I can quote these verses because people do practice what's these gods supposedly preached, especially in the east - which is still in the 7th century because of Islam. I don't need to have read the book ten times to understand "what they really mean!" However some Islamic countries are slowly becoming modernized/westernised - thankfully.
You seem to think that I want rid of Islam or any other religion, you are wrong. What I would like to see the end of is evil in the name of religion, which you will not allow yourself to see. (not surprisingly)
In the east, Muslims openly hate Jews, hate gays, opress women and disrespect anybody who isn't Muslim because it's says so in the Quran (in the name of religion!) so do you agree with these practices? Or are you going to say it's a culture thing? These things are a reality because of the Quran/religion!!!
Religion does hurt people whether they believe or not - especially in Islam. Imagine being a homosexual woman say for example in iran. You are telling me that religion doesn't hurt anybody?

This post has been edited by Atheist1: Nov 19 2009, 02:27 AM

[NOSHADYLADY4]

Keep dreaming and living A...you did not know whst I was going to say before I said it, you just just do not want to be proven wrong about the history of Islam. And if you do not understand even after it is read ten times is also typical of one who does not believe that the same God that created you will call you to account when you die.
Actually...it should be read for a lifetime to learn and live it.
If you wish to see the end of "this evil in the name of religion" why not study and learn the religion before passing putride bias judgment. And of course you want because you fear that you will actually learn the truth behind why God does what He does.
And NO, I do not believe in Muslims or any other sect that do. However I do have the right not to like and agree with homosexuality as it is an abomination against God and nature. I do not condone the oppression of women in any religion, especially Islam. I like people to a certain extent. I do not like abuse, in any form, I do not like killing in any form, if killing can be avioided, then it should. I do not hate the jews because I was taught not to hate anyone. Yes I dislike the "ways" of people and what they do in the name of Islam, or any religion for that matter. Islam doesn't teach me hatred, but Allah knows who the good people are and who the bad ones are and I trust Him with my life.

If I were homosexual(thank Allah that I am not) in any country, I would be to ashamed to tell anyone, let alone flaunt it publicly....Hello!!

In Islam, people are given the chance to repent from such behavior. They are told the consequences concerning their actions. The choice is left up to them whether or not to obey the laws or take the punishment. God did NOT ordain two women/men for eachother. And as their Creator, He knows what is best for mankind. Even if mankind does not agree!! I do not go against the laws of God.

FYI-many religions do not tolerate these things and have laws to dealwith them NOT just Islam. Islam is just the worlds scapegoat...always have been and probably always will be. So if people are going to be angry and vindictive about Islam, then they should also be the same about other religions that covet the same examples.

Now since you have had your say about Islam, let us have our say about Atheism. Is that fair play?? Because none of us will ever give enough reliabld answers that will satisfy one who does not believe in God anyway. Kinda like beating a dead horse and expecting it to jump up and say "I am dead already"!! As for me...

Enough said..

[NOSHADYLADY4]

Keep dreaming and living A...you did not know whst I was going to say before I said it, you just just do not want to be proven wrong about the history of Islam. And if you do not understand even after it is read ten times is also typical of one who does not believe that the same God that created you will call you to account when you die.
Actually...it should be read for a lifetime to learn and live it.
If you wish to see the end of "this evil in the name of religion" why not study and learn the religion before passing putride bias judgment. And of course you want because you fear that you will actually learn the truth behind why God does what He does.
And NO, I do not believe in Muslims or any other sect that do. However I do have the right not to like and agree with homosexuality as it is an abomination against God and nature. I do not condone the oppression of women in any religion, especially Islam. I like people to a certain extent. I do not like abuse, in any form, I do not like killing in any form, if killing can be avioided, then it should. I do not hate the jews because I was taught not to hate anyone. Yes I dislike the "ways" of people and what they do in the name of Islam, or any religion for that matter. Islam doesn't teach me hatred, but Allah knows who the good people are and who the bad ones are and I trust Him with my life.

If I were homosexual(thank Allah that I am not) in any country, I would be to ashamed to tell anyone, let alone flaunt it publicly....Hello!!

In Islam, people are given the chance to repent from such behavior. They are told the consequences concerning their actions. The choice is left up to them whether or not to obey the laws or take the punishment. God did NOT ordain two women/men for eachother. And as their Creator, He knows what is best for mankind. Even if mankind does not agree!! I do not go against the laws of God.

FYI-many religions do not tolerate these things and have laws to dealwith them NOT just Islam. Islam is just the worlds scapegoat...always have been and probably always will be. So if people are going to be angry and vindictive about Islam, then they should also be the same about other religions that covet the same examples.

Now since you have had your say about Islam, let us have our say about Atheism. Is that fair play?? Because none of us will ever give enough reliabld answers that will satisfy one who does not believe in God anyway. Kinda like beating a dead horse and expecting it to jump up and say "I am dead already"!! As for me...

Enough said..

This post has been edited by NOSHADYLADY4: Nov 19 2009, 12:47 PM

[NOSHADYLADY4]

OOOOPS....SO SORRY, HIT THE APPLY BUTTON TWICE BY MISTAKE!!!

[Atheist1]

Err yes I did know what you was going to say because it's the same thing as every Muslim says. I do not want to learn the history of Islam or amy other religion - I don't need to, I live now not 2000 years ago. I don't agree with homosexuality personally, but I would not hurt someone physically for it - that is barbaric and violent (which seems to be the only way Islam asserts punishment. So you admit that you certainly wouldn't go public if you were a homosexual, because you know the consequences. That in itself shows how primitive Islam is!
I wonder how many homosexual Muslims there are who are happy and can live a normal life. And if not, I wonder why.
And I would also like to know why Muslims seem to be very sensitive? You mock the prophet and you will be threatened with death or violence. Do you justify this or fo you condemn it?
As for atheism, well it's great - I'm free, I answer to nobody but myself, I live my life without worrying about anything, especially going to hell!
I also wonder how I would be treated in the east? :-p

This post has been edited by Atheist1: Nov 19 2009, 02:03 PM

[NOSHADYLADY4]

Have you met every muslim? No I didn't think so.

Not wanting to learn about any religious history is a true atheistic cop out. The same thing I told my friend...oops can you phanthom it!

That is why Allah tells us; "To you be your way to me be mine". I truly understand my religion and know that when I follow it to the letter I have no problems but people have problems with me, because I choose to live Islam.

This present came about on the backs of the past, even an idiot can understand that.

I am not in the business of hurting people regardless what they are. If Allah commands a punishment for an abomination, that is His right to do so. If you do not like His decisions and judgments, one can always be like you, an atheist who believes only in himself.
There are plenty homosexual muslims that are living and thriving and may I add still alive! oooohhhhh surprise, Islam is sooo barbaric isn't it? And why would I go public about something so vile and filthy that would contaminate the world..uhh not my cup of java.
You mock the Prophet, others mock the prophet, so what... most of us all know who and what the Prophet was about. Others carry a chip and offense and yes threaten. I do not condone this behavior. Because I know what the Prophet is about.
If someone said something about your mother or my mother that was not true, I myself would not get angry, why, because I know my mother and know that what they are saying is not true...elementary; and if it were true..my response would be .."so what", I cannot raise my mother nor can I make choices for her.
Is it so hard to believe that there are muslims that are actually non-violent and are not easily provoked by ignorance? tsk tsk tsk! There are good and bad christian, muslims, catholics, atheists, etc. But one thing is for sure..they each have to answer to their Creator, whether they believe it or not. And actually it is not left up to you or me anyway.
Like I said...keep dreaming! Hmmmm And why not go to the east and find out just what people would think of you and how they would treat you. There is always room for a passport and Jello!! LOL

Now can we please get on with some real Islam and not your daily dose of Islamic therapy?

This post has been edited by NOSHADYLADY4: Nov 19 2009, 02:59 PM

[Atheist1]

I don't have a problem with you, I don't understand what made you think that. Of course there are good and bad in all walks as I said before. I am not trying to offend anyone, I am however trying to understand how people devote their lives to something and often defend it with their lives, when there is no proof of prophets/gods etc. It's blind faith and hope which was spawned from hardship and poverty. I can understand how people hope and pray etc when that's all they have, but in this day and age it seems such an ancient fairy tale with which people can manipulate to their advantage. (which happens too often)
And no I will not have to answer to "my creator" i answer to me and the people close to me. I know who I am, and nobody is going to try and scare me with ridiculous threats of going to hell if I do wrong! I mean what is supposed to happen anyway? If I do good do I get 10 virgins in paradise or something? That doesn't sound very holy - It sounds rather perverted. Rather like the prophet going with a nine year old girl. it's so obvious to me that religion was an ancient way to control people and keep order. It belongs in the past, I'm amazed it's still around today!
You must admit though that in the west, the traditions of rules of islam are being diluted with the younger people. I mean, I know of plenty of Muslims who are doing things that they should not. Drinking alcohol, drugs, sex before marriage (male and female) This is why I don't think that religion belongs in the modern world - in belongs in the dark age/east.


This post has been edited by Atheist1: Nov 20 2009, 02:55 AM

[Monarque]

atheist1:

To blame God, apart from His non-intervention, would be taking it a bit too far, Like another member pointed out, the reason is probably something else.

I don't think that even if we all agree to do away with God and His prohibitions altogether we would see the problems of the world go away. We need some pretext to be jerks. "God" is a convenient one.

The problems of the world would blissfully exist, perfectly oblivious to the existence of God.

[Atheist1]

Then what is the point of religion? Is it true also that according to the Quran the penalty for leaving the Muslim faith is death? Peaceful? Where's the peace in that? Again, lets just forget that part conveniently :-)

This post has been edited by Atheist1: Nov 20 2009, 12:13 PM

[Monarque]

A religion is a collection of beliefs; and quite simply a legislation. Let us assume religions A, B, and C. Let us further assume A is the handiwork of "God"; B of some guy who thinks it's upto him to save the world; & C of some guy who's ambitious. Then, the point of A would be that God wants to have His way.The point of B would be some poor fella's attempt at saving the world. The point of C would be ambitions. What you ask about the Coran highlights the fact that it is not easy to identify a religion as A, B, or C.

[Atheist1]

Another flaw of religion is that your religion is totally dependant on where u come from: if you are from say Iran you are born/forced into Islam. If you are from Europe, chances are you will be Christian. I just do not get how religious people swear with their lives and believe with everything in their "local" god! Don't you ever rationalise, or try and form your own opinion on things? Rather than believing beyond any doubt what your god supposedly said. What if the Quran is a story? What if it was one mans idea on how things should be done? I think people shouldn't follow such nonsense especially when it says to kill non believers etc. It's sadistic! If someone proves to me that a god exists, Great! Until then keep on dreaming.

[NOSHADYLADY4]

The point with atheists is that they do not believe...period.
They do not believe that people have the right to choose God instead of idiocy and ignorance.
They do not believe that it is "people" that choose make the religion bad NOT the religion.
They believe that people are stupid, blind to have faith in God.
They believe that they will not have to answer to God for anything.
They believe in nothing but themselves.

So why are you even here asking us po' muslims about our religion? If you do not care for us, leave the forum and you will be rid of us on one scale in your small world.

YOU-

I do good do I get 10 virgins in paradise or something?

Since you do not believe in any paradise anyway, you couldn't handle a heavenly virgin if she dropped in your lap. She would just be another person you would'nt believe in anyway.

Once again, it is people who make the religion, any religion bad. So... if you want to really have a great debate on Islam, why not just ask us qustions, whether muslim, christian, or whatever for the information, and then you can keep feeling and thinking that you will not have to answer to anyone later.

The sad part about not believing in God is that all the frustrations, disbelief, and arrogance is just a facade for emptyness. Why not just ask us about how we came to know there is a God, and how we developed the faith we have. It is much better than playing "ring around the religion", as most of us stopped playing a long time ago.

And from your last comments, and ignorantly not wanting to understanding Islams history, you haven't learned anything through all the evidences. You are such a joke and I for one have grown tired of the redhoric and gibberish. Is there anything important that you need to say, if not "peace out"!

May Allah bring you to true understanding and grant you a lighted path to with your Creator.

This post has been edited by NOSHADYLADY4: Nov 20 2009, 05:10 PM

[Monarque]

I don't agree with your assertion about one being forced into worshipping the '"local" god'. I think we can find plenty of examples of this being not the case.<>God or no God, problems might exist. I say you might want to elaborate "a world without problems" to see how far we can credit religion(s) with the world's problems.

[Atheist1]

I never said people do not have the right to what they believe in. I'm merely asking the question: what if there is no god? As the evidence points that way. But as usual and in typical Muslim fashion, you will not have any of it, and become irritated when someone questions your precious beliefs! (very closed minded) I'm far from empty, my life is full of happiness, family, love with no need for religion. In fact I think if you need religion to feel your life is meaningful that's rather sad!
About the local god thing, I just think it's funny how the god you worship is totally dependant on where ur born. And each religion totally believes in their "local" god. A Muslim will argue to the death that Mohammed existed, yet if that same person was born elsewhere, he/she would be into another a god! It kinda clarifies the fact that religion basically is a "local" thing.
And as for the virgins thing, well it kinda defeats the object of "holiness." what kind of holy person are you if you believe that paradise is having your way with 10 virgins!!!? It's hilarious! I wouldn't be able to handle a heavenly virgin? I handle women in this world, the real world, you know where we are right now! Not in wonderland where u hope paradise is waiting for you!
Nobody answered the question by the way: if you leave the Muslim faith what is the penalty?
The point of atheism is to question with a totally open mind, I would have no problem following any religion or god if there was proof. Atheists are basically people who are rational and have not been lead into something which people around them believe in. Yet time and time again you think I'm enforcing my opinions on you. I'm not. That's exactly what Im against, but which Islam stands for. You see again, another contradiction by muslims


This post has been edited by Atheist1: Nov 21 2009, 04:04 AM