Tawassul, A challenge to all Options

[Reaz Rajab]

Assalaamu 'alaa manittaba'al huda!I challenge all those who disagree with the concept of Tawassul, to come and prove to me, from Quran, Hadith and Fatwa from scholars of the first three generations of Islam, that this concept leads to Shirk and is prohibited.If anyone is able to prove that, i'll quit my Aqeedah, and follow his Aqeedah.Anyone..?

[Killed Bill]

There is no scholar before Ibn Taymiyyah that even suggested Tawassul was not allowed

[Ali A.]

Assalaamu 'alaa manittaba'al huda!I challenge all those who disagree with the concept of Tawassul, to come and prove to me, from Quran, Hadith and Fatwa from scholars of the first three generations of Islam, that this concept leads to Shirk and is prohibited.If anyone is able to prove that, i'll quit my Aqeedah, and follow his Aqeedah.Anyone..?

,

Sorry, but I don't seem to understand what you want? Are you against Tawassul or with it?

[Kalaam]

First tell me, why do we need tawassul? Isn't Allah enough for us? Or is He far from us and we need some mediator or else He will not listen to us or something? Kindly explain anyone who is interested. I want to first know why people need tawassul.

[NOSHADYLADY4]

I use tawassul to get closer to Allah. By this I mean I make extra dhikr, extra prayers, voluntary fasting, reading Qur'an more. Sometimes I ask friends to remember me in their prayers(Not ask Allah for anything for me) just pray for my health, and blessings from Allah.

We all as Muslims should do as much as we can to get closer to Allah. It is not a matter of going to a person, sheikh, Imam, priest, pastor, etc. We just need to find time to get closer to Allah through means that the Prophet and all the generations after him practiced.

Getting up in the middle of the night and crying to Allah is a very effective tool of tawassul. We need to face Allah by ourselves and ask for what we need. We should not be like the Christians who ask Isa to intercede for them.

This post has been edited by NOSHADYLADY4: Mar 18 2010, 02:55 AM

[Killed Bill]

We should not be like the Christians who ask Isa to intercede for them.

so you dont agree with tawassul?

[Kalaam]

Don't you agree with Quran?

[NOSHADYLADY4]

Assalamu Alaikum:Tell me what YOU think Qur'an means by tawassul?

[Kalaam]

"Ask Allah and do not ask other than Him,.Seek help from Allah and do not seek help from other then Him. Woe to you, with which face will you meet Him tomorrow? You contend with Him in the world, turning away from Him, and approaching His creation thus associating partners with Him.You submit your needs to them and rely on them in your important matters.Increase the ways and means between yourself and Allaah, for verily,if you stop that, then it is foolishness. There is no king, or authority, no self-sufficiency and no might except with Allah, The Mighty,The Magestic,turn towards Allah without the creation"

Whom do you think would have said this?

[NOSHADYLADY4]

I know that Allah said it, what I often get is people attributing things to Qur'an that are not there, and others mix Qur'an and Sunnah. I wanted to know YOUR personal thought not recite from Qur'an, thats all.

And of course I believe in and agree with Qur'an and all that it entails. Its just that I have heard many crazy things attributed to Qur'an.
Thats why I said in my post #5 that I try to read much more Qur'an. Even though the Prophet is a part of the shahadah, mentioned in Qur'an and Hadith, he is still a man and we should only ask Allah Ta'ala directly for what we need. That is why Allah says in Qur'an:

"You have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator" (32:4)!

KILLED BILL: Of course I do agree with tawassul!! Just not having others interceed for me with Allah. I like to go directly to Allah, not like I used to when I was a Christian and go to Jesus! That was the "thing" then!! Truth always win out!!!

This post has been edited by iamcrazy: Jun 21 2010, 03:25 PM

Reason for edit: Also use of emoticons is banned in interfaith.

[rizwan]

jilani

[Killed Bill]

KILLED BILL: Of course I do agree with tawassul!! Just not having others interceed for me with Allah. I like to go directly to Allah, not like I used to when I was a Christian and go to Jesus! That was the "thing" then!! Truth always win out!!!

Then that isnt Tawassul

Tawassul is intercession, and it is permitted.

[forgive_me92]

what's tawassal? meaning asking prophet saw to do dua for us. we are not praying TO THE PROPHET SAWW. we are simply asking the best man in the world to ask Allah to give us something. surely the hadiths have stated that there are certain sins which stop our duas getting accepted or our blessings are taken away or things like this.
wherby it is 100% guaranteed that prophets saww an perfect person's dua will be accepted. that is like saying if i ask NOSHADYLADY4 to pray for me that is shirk?..
logically it is not. it doesnt mean that we cant pray to Allah directly from ourselves. we can but we can also do tawassul because they are the highest people and closest to Allah. In all due respect, no one can give a fatwa on something Allah has'nt forbidden.

What prophet saw has made halal will be halal till the day of judgement and what is haraam is haraam till the day of judgement. there are no ifs and but's about it.

[NOSHADYLADY4]

Tawassul is a means of seeking nearness to Allah. I remember reading about these three types of Tawassul:

(1) TAWASSUL through a living righteous person to Allah Most High. This was done when the Prophet was alive. When Isa was alive, etc.

(2) The TAWASSUL of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds. This is done "by" the good one has done.

(3) And the TAWASSUL of a person to Allah Most High through His entity (dhat), names, attributes, and so forth. Calling on Allah's names etc directly.

I consider tawassul to be directed at Allah and to Allah(2)(3). I do not need to ask the Prophet to ask Allah anything on my behalf. Nor do I need to ask anyone else or anything to interceed for me.

I trust in the Prophet , but I still rather just go directly to Allah regardless the position of the prophet. Allah says "to seek ye means to Him".. I personally just go directly to Allah either by using His Names/Attributes, Qur'an, extra prayers etc.

Most people use the Prophets, saints, etc and it is their choice. MY personal choice is to go directly to Allah. If my prayers are not accepted, only Allah knows why. If they are accepted only Allah knows why. I just wish to get closer to Allah through prayer, reading, good, deeds, more charity, etc.

This post has been edited by NOSHADYLADY4: Mar 25 2010, 07:40 PM

[Killed Bill]

Tawassul is a means of seeking nearness to Allah. I remember reading about these three types of Tawassul:
(1) TAWASSUL through a living righteous person to Allah Most High. This was done when the Prophet was alive. When Isa was alive, etc.
(2) The TAWASSUL of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds. This is done "by" the good one has done.

And where in the Quran has this been specified? (that intercession is ONLY permitted with the living)

(3) And the TAWASSUL of a person to Allah Most High through His entity (dhat), names, attributes, and so forth. Calling on Allah's names etc directly.

I consider tawassul to be directed at Allah and to Allah(2)(3). I do not need to ask the Prophet to ask Allah anything on my behalf. Nor do I need to ask anyone else or anything to interceed for me.

I trust in the Prophet , but I still rather just go directly to Allah regardless the position of the prophet. Allah says "to seek ye means to Him".. I personally just go directly to Allah either by using His Names/Attributes, Qur'an, extra prayers etc.

Yes, seek nearness to Allah from those who are better than you.

Otherwise it would be very pointless to ask someone to make a dua for you.

Most people use the Prophets, saints, etc and it is their choice. MY personal choice is to go directly to Allah. If my prayers are not accepted, only Allah knows why. If they are accepted only Allah knows why. I just wish to get closer to Allah through prayer, reading, good, deeds, more charity, etc.

Thread isnt about personal choices, its about justification of Tawassul

[NOSHADYLADY4]

We were asked to refute tawassul, I do not disagree with it. Nor do I think it leads to shirk IF it is done correctly. Nor did I mention that I read this in Qur'an, but I remember reading it elsewhere. [ So therefore my personal choices are according to Qur'an:
1." So call you not anyone with Allah." (72:18)
2. "Surely, those whom you call other than Allah are subservient (to Allah) like unto your own selves..." (7:194)]
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. If people wish to pray and have him intercede for them, then they do so. [u]I have no problem with that. [/u]We all have a choice, I agree with making tawassul as a means to get closer to Allah, and we are not worshipping the Prophet, just asking for his help. I just choose to select other options that are available. Not that one day I may have to ask this special favor from him, Allahu Alim. Until that day comes, Allah is my choice.

Yes, seek nearness to Allah from those who are better than you.

The Prophet is unlimited times better than me and Allah is no comparison to Him. So I select the Greatest over the best.

There are so many people who just pray straight to Allah, I just happen to be one of them, sorry.

[Kalaam]

If this quote

"Ask Allah and do not ask other than Him,.Seek help from Allah and do not seek help from other then Him. Woe to you, with which face will you meet Him tomorrow? You contend with Him in the world, turning away from Him, and approaching His creation thus associating partners with Him.You submit your needs to them and rely on them in your important matters.Increase the ways and means between yourself and Allaah, for verily,if you stop that, then it is foolishness. There is no king, or authority, no self-sufficiency and no might except with Allah, The Mighty,The Magestic,turn towards Allah without the creation"

is of Abdul Qadir Jeelani, than why don't the people who claim huge love for him accept it?

Allah says very clearly,

[050:016] It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

Do you think those prophets or saints you worship are nearer to you than your jugular vein? If not, and indeed not, than what are you expecting you from them? Even when you are on their graves , God is still nearer to you.

Actually this theory that saints or prophets make you nearer to God is actually christian in its origin , which required to pray to Jesus so your prayers could be accepted.

<< 1 Timothy 2:5 >>
New International Version (©1984)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Allah condemned this

[039:003] Is it not to God that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than God (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God." Truly God will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But God guides not such as are false and ungrateful.

Aren't you using the same logic? Be sincere with yourself, isn't this what you are doing and claiming?

There are lot of supplications in Quran, which one of them says we should not pray directly to God but through some saint?

Read these supplications

Quran (2/201) (2/250) ,(2/286), (3/8), (3/16), (3/38), (3/53), (3/147), (3/191-194) ,(7/23), (7/47), (7/126), (9/129), (10/85-86), (11/47), (14/40), (14/41), (17/80), (18/10), (20/25-28), (20/114) ,(21/87) ,(21/89), (23/97-98), (23/109), (23/118)


(رَّبِّ زِدْنِي عِلْمًا)

"My Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (20/114)

This post has been edited by Kalaam: Mar 28 2010, 09:33 AM

[rizwan]

Do you think those prophets or saints you worship are nearer to you than your jugular vein?

perhaps you'd like to clarify who on this forum you are referring to as 'you' here, because unless you actually know that 'you' worships prophets/saints or have some evidence or logical proof of it, you are just baselessly slandering.

seriously tho, comments like that really cast doubt over the sincerity of your intention. if you're here to spread lies and fairytales, then you're not welcome.

[Kalaam]

QUOTE(Kalaam @ Mar 28 2010, 03:26 PM)
Do you think those prophets or saints you worship are nearer to you than your jugular vein?

perhaps you'd like to clarify who on this forum you are referring to as 'you' here, because unless you actually know that 'you' worships prophets/saints or have some evidence or logical proof of it, you are just baselessly slandering.

seriously tho, comments like that really cast doubt over the sincerity of your intention. if you're here to spread lies and fairytales, then you're not welcome.

Pardon me, I should have said, the prophets or saints whom you ask from in your prayers , though according to you its an indirect way of asking from God.

Now the answer please.

[Bar Haq]

AoAWARBH

Allah(swt) is Aadil, that is Just. His justice demand the presence of Hadi' Barhaq at all times in all era because:

If Shaitan exists and can stray us away,
similarly an approach of intercession towards the guided ones could lead us towards the right path, the path of those who have been blessed instead of the cursed ones.

If God could interact directly with humans, then why did He send Messengers to communicate with us?

The system of guidance demands that we must follow and remain in touich His Pious chosen Hadi's.

Hope it clarifies.

“O believers! Fear Allah and seek the means to approach Him and strive in His way haply you may receive prosperity.”

[Surah Al Ma’idah, verse 35]