"the Promised Land", Which seed of Abraham did God promise it to? Options

Who is the true heir of the land God promised to the seed of Abraham? Isacc from his wife Sara or Ishmael from his servant Hager?

Does the Quran' and Torah differ in this regard?

Who is the true heir of the land God promised to the seed of Abraham? Isacc from his wife Sara or Ishmael from his servant Hager?

Does the Quran' and Torah differ in this regard?

No one reads their Holy Books in this forum?

http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/zionism_racism.shtml

No one replies because we all know you're a racist anti-muslim bigot.

Instead of answering questions, you merely call Patriot a racist anti-Muslim bigot. Muslim is a title, not a race. Black Wolf, you prove my point every time you post. You're an idiot. And you're exactly why peace may never be attained.
I feel another warning coming my way....

Ah yes, I see that now. Apologies Black Wolf. I'm not going to hold against you what you never said.

which land are you talking about patriot?

Palestine.

Hasn't the map of Palestine changed over the thousand years it has been around?

http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/zionism_racism.shtml

No one replies because we all know you're a racist anti-muslim bigot.

Actually you are quite wrong. But I do not appreciate the Extremists in any religion. You may have also noticed that I refrain from name calling inspite of the many names you have called me. Perhaps you should ask Allah for help in this area, your life will improve greatly if you treat people better.

I noticed your link stated that the "international community" has confirmed that Zionism is racist. Would you mind sending me something explaining what that means? Who are they referring to as the "international community".

Oh... that's right. You don't do that. You like to through out insults, rhetoric and biased internet links instead. I wonder why that is? Could it be that you have absolutely nothing to substantiate any of your biased, extremist comments?

Hasn't the map of Palestine changed over the thousand years it has been around?

Yes it has.

http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/zionism_racism.shtml

No one replies because we all know you're a racist anti-muslim bigot.

Actually you are quite wrong. But I do not appreciate the Extremists in any religion. You may have also noticed that I refrain from name calling inspite of the many names you have called me. Perhaps you should ask Allah for help in this area, your life will improve greatly if you treat people better.

I noticed your link stated that the "international community" has confirmed that Zionism is racist. Would you mind sending me something explaining what that means? Who are they referring to as the "international community".

Oh... that's right. You don't do that. You like to through out insults, rhetoric and biased internet links instead. I wonder why that is? Could it be that you have absolutely nothing to substantiate any of your biased, extremist comments?

Yes you have, I've called you names in response to your insults.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say tell that Zionism is racist. The "Only one people can be on this land" rhetoric, Jew only roads, Occupation, Apartheid, Racial superiority, by definition by supporting this you are a racist, your anti-muslim bigotry has been exposed in threads past.

Tell me, what evidence do YOU have to the contrary.

I send you link after link, thesis after thesis, Video, after video.

All documented evidences, yet you've shown nothing but your own biased, and racist opinion, could this be because YOUR post lacks substance? I do believe it does.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
http://wwwjewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html

This post has been edited by Al-Din'As-Darfur: May 5 2008, 05:13 PM

Hasn't the map of Palestine changed over the thousand years it has been around?

Yes it has.

Its changed because of imperialists, the people are still there though.

Sultanate of Palestine, the people never moved, Mandate of Palestine still the people stayed, transjordan, borders extended but the people stayed.

The blood of the Israelites, the Canaanites, and the philistines run through the blood of the Palestinians born their in the 1900's.

Israeli blood is Roman blood.

P.S. Maps made a thousand years ago aren't really THAT accurate, it might be a mistake to bring that into a debate.

This post has been edited by Al-Din'As-Darfur: May 5 2008, 05:18 PM

Instead of answering questions, you merely call Patriot a racist anti-Muslim bigot. Muslim is a title, not a race. Black Wolf, you prove my point every time you post. You're an idiot. And you're exactly why peace may never be attained.
I feel another warning coming my way....

Zionism is a racist, supreamist ideology. Its proven this over and over again in the 60 years of its existance.

Instead of answering questions, you merely call Patriot a racist anti-Muslim bigot. Muslim is a title, not a race. Black Wolf, you prove my point every time you post. You're an idiot. And you're exactly why peace may never be attained.
I feel another warning coming my way....

Zionism is a racist, supreamist ideology. Its proven this over and over again in the 60 years of its existance.

More Rhetoric with no substantiation. Maybe one time you could offer something (in you own words) to substantiate what you say. From an objective point of view, I mean real information that is accepted by the international community with out your search engine to help you find more biased hate propaganda. Show what is argued on both sides rather than a one sided opinion. I will show you how to do this if you need help understanding the concept.

Hasn't the map of Palestine changed over the thousand years it has been around?

Yes it has.

Its changed because of imperialists, the people are still there though.

Sultanate of Palestine, the people never moved, Mandate of Palestine still the people stayed, transjordan, borders extended but the people stayed.

The blood of the Israelites, the Canaanites, and the philistines run through the blood of the Palestinians born their in the 1900's.

Israeli blood is Roman blood.

P.S. Maps made a thousand years ago aren't really THAT accurate, it might be a mistake to bring that into a debate.

I see... so the never was a Kingdom of Judea or a Kingdom of Israel?

You beat me to the question about Judea. The facts tell the story, not blind rhetoric.

This post has been edited by Demonoid1313: May 5 2008, 07:12 PM

I'm not much on taking from the Internet... but a friend sent nthis to me.

Six years after the death of Islam's Prophet Muhammad (638 years after the death of Christ), Jerusalem was conquered by an Army of Muslim calvary under Muhammad's second successor, Caliph Umar I.

To celebrate the subjugation of the "Holy City" by warriors for the new religion of Islam, Caliph Umar cleansed the Temple Mount (Mount Moriah) and built a small mosque for Muslim worship.

To proclaim the supremacy of Islam and to ensure that Jerusalem's new followers of Islam would not be tempted by Christianity. The Muslim conquerors began to built a more spectacular Islamic edifice adjacent to the Christian Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

The site chosen was the very same rock where two temples of the Jews and the Jupiter temple of the Romans previously had stood. It was chosen because the Prophet Muhammad had designated Jerusalem as the first qibla (the direction Muslims face when praying) and because Muslims believed Muhammad ascended on his night journey to heaven from the area of Solomon's Temple.

The 17^th Sura of the Muslim Koran entitled "The Night Journey," relates that Muhammad was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs..."

Muhammad's mystic night journey, according to Muslim tradition, was made with the Archangel Gabriel. They were magically transported on a winged horse-like creature, called El Burak (meaning lightning), that was "smaller than a mule, but larger than a donkey."

They Stopped briefly at Mt. Sinai and Bethlehem before finally dismounting at Temple Mount in Jerusalem. There they encountered Abraham, Moses, Jesus and other prophets, whom Mohammed led in prayers.

Muhammad was then escorted by Gabriel to the pinnacle of a rock called as-Sakhra by Muslims, where a ladder of golden light materialized. Taking the latter, Mohammed ascended through the seven heavens into the presence of Allah, from whom he received divine instructions for himself and his followers.

After his meeting with Allah, Muhammad and the Archangel Gabriel flew back to Mecca on the winged horse, arriving there before dawn.

It was on this Jewish Holy Ground between 687 and 691 A.D., that Caliph Omar's successor, the 10th Caliph, Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan, built the great Islamic Dome of the Rock and called it the "Furthest Mosque."

With the Islam's conquest of Palestine and the building of the Dome of the Rock on the site where the Temple of Solomon once stood, Muslims had effectively hijacked an ancient Holy Place.

The name Palestine is derived from a word meaning "land of the Philistines." It is a historic region on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea known as the "Holy Land" or "the Promised Land.".

In the Bible, Palestine is called Canaan before the invasion of Joshua; the usual Hebrew name is Eretz Israel (land of Israel).

The earliest known inhabitants of Palestine were people similar to the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe.

The earliest traces of human settlement in the Jerusalem area are from the late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age (3000 BC) when most of the towns known in Biblical times came into existence as centers of trade for Egyptian and Babylonian goods.

During c. 2000 B.C., Palestine was ruled by the Hyksos and by the Egyptians. Near the end of that period Moses led the Hebrew people (Jews) out of Egypt, across the Sinai, and into Palestine.

Around 1200 B.C., the Philistines (Sea Peoples) invaded the southern coast land and established a powerful kingdom (Philistia). The Hebrews were subject to the Philistines until c.1000 B.C., when an independent Hebrew kingdom was established under King Saul, who was succeeded by King David.

During that time, a town existed on the south side of Mount Moriah, also called Temple Mount. The name of this town was Urusalim, a word probably of Semitic origin that apparently means 'Foundation of Shalem' or 'Foundation of God'.

King David, founder of the joint kingdom of Israel and Judah, captured Urusalim and made it the Jewish kingdom's capital.

Following King David's capture of Urusalim, the Ark of the Covenant (the Israelites most sacred object) was moved to that city around 955 B.C. The Ark was a portable shrine containing the two stone Tablets of the Law which the prophet Moses had received upon Mt. Sinai.

King David renamed his city Jerusalem, meaning "City of Peace" in Hebrew. Mt. Moriah, considered to be the site where Abraham built an altar on which he prepared to sacrifice his son Isaac, was chosen by King David as the site of his future temple.

King David was succeeded by his son, Solomon.

Under King Solomon Israel enjoyed peace and prosperity. Construction of the First Temple of the Jews began during his reign and was completed in 957 BC.

When King Solomon died in 922 BC, the Hebrew kingdom broke up into two states, Israel, with its capital at Samaria, and Judah, under the house of David, with its capital at Jerusalem.

These two kingdoms were conquered by Mesopotamian states, Israel by Assyria (c.720 B.C.) and Judah by Babylonia (586 B.C.). The First Temple was completely destroyed .

In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Reconstruction began and the Second Temple was completed by 515 B.C.

Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered Palestine in 333 B.C.

The Jews under the Maccabees revolted against Alexander's successors and set up a new Jewish state in 142 B.C.

That state lasted until 63 B.C., when Roman general Pompey the Great conquered Palestine for Rome ushering in several centuries of Roman rule by Jewish kings. It was during the rule (37-4 BC) of King Herod the Great that Jesus Christ was born.

Herod the Great rebuilt and enlarged the Second Temple and created the famous Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) as part of the supporting structure for the enlarged Temple Mount.

In 6 A.D., the Romans turned the governance of Jerusalem over to a series of administrators known as procurators, the fifth of whom, Pontius Pilate, ordered the execution of Jesus.

Two more Jewish revolts erupted and were suppressed - in A.D. 66 to 73 and 132 to 135. The Second Temple was demolished in 70 AD.

After the second revolt, numerous Jews were killed, many were sold into slavery, and the rest were not allowed to visit Jerusalem. Judea was renamed Syria Palaistina.

In 135 A.D., the Roman Emperor Hadrain began construction of a new city, called Aelia Capitolina, upon the ruins of old Jerusalem. On the site of the destroyed Jewish temple, Hadrian built a temple to the god Jupiter.

After Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312 A.D.), the Hadrian temple was demolished and Jerusalem became a center of Christian pilgrimage. Many Jews left the region as a result.

Emperor Constantine's support of Christianity made possible the building of many Christian shrines in the city.

Finished in 335 A.D., the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which marked the site of the Resurrection soon became the supremely sacred place for all Christians.

It was during this era that the tradition of Christian pilgrimages to Jerusalem began. The pilgrimage sites included Bethlehem, were Jesus was born; Golgatha, the site of his death (and where legend says the skull of Adam is buried); the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; and the Mount of Olives, where Jesus ascended to heaven..

Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 A.D. by Persians who invaded the city, massacred the inhabitants and destroyed all the churches and monasteries.

Palestine was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans before being conquered by Muslims welding bloody swords and beginning 1300 years of Islam's claim to Palestine.

Instead of answering questions, you merely call Patriot a racist anti-Muslim bigot. Muslim is a title, not a race [wrong *****]. Black Wolf, you prove my point every time you post. You're an idiot. And you're exactly why peace may never be attained.
I feel another warning coming my way....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race://http://dictionary.reference.com/bro...inked-image" />

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source

race2 /reɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[reys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2. a population so related.

3. Anthropology.

a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.

5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.

7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.

8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.

9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.

10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.

–adjective

11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind.

[Origin: 1490–1500;


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


American Heritage Dictionary -
race 1 (rās) n.
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology
a. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
b. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality.

This post has been edited by Kevin Brunstine: Jul 18 2008, 01:55 PM

The land was promised to "true believers". Muslims believe that as Islam was declared, all other religions were no longer valid in the eyes of Allah/God (Because we believe that they are outdated and are infiltrated with man-made ideologies; we also believe that all prior religions were meant for "parts" of the world or certain groups, while Islam is the final and global religion). So, Palestinians claim that they are the ones entitled to the land. While the Jews claim that they are entitled to the land also. I don't see a solution to this anywhere in near sight. It'll probably end when both the Muslims and the Jews get tired of fighting each other and learn to accept each other. Sheesh, that would be the day.

This post has been edited by Ovi: Jul 18 2008, 07:43 PM