Can God Create a stone He cannot lift? Options

This is an argument made by many atheists when questioning God.


Heres my answer.

ABSOLUTELY.

Heres my logic.

• All powerful means even things humans can never comprehend can become true.
• Someting that humans can't comprehend well is contradictions in math/science/physics. Like 1+1=3 will never make sense to a human.
• All powerful is a concept that can do things we can never comphrehend, like make contradictions true.
• God is all powerful.
• God can create a stone He cannot lift.

If you say that its still not possible, then I believe that you aren't wise enough to realize the limitations of the human brain and that human brains cannot comprehend everything. So by questioning all powerful concepts (all powerful is something we cannot comprehend), we dont understand the nature of humans.

Anyone?

Thanks, Religion of philosophy coursework part one is done.

[ I have a somewhat different approach..though the same answer.]

The same "argument" can be applied to "can God create a more powerful and independent God?"

This post has been edited by kellyjaz: Sep 24 2007, 06:57 AM

I would answer the argument differently.

A stone that is too heavy for an omnipotent God to lift cannot exist as its existance would invalidate the omnipotence of God (which is assumed). It is a logical impossibility. The argument uses a false premise. Ergo, the argument is void and invalid.

It is a logical impossibility.

If God is all powerful, then he can make the illogical logical. Adding an "impossiblity" and limitations clause contradicts the idea of "all powerful" "no limit' God.

This illogical logic is something humans cannot comprehend.

This post has been edited by Simba: Sep 25 2007, 10:16 AM

^

We disagree on the nature of God then. I believe that God is logically coherent. I agree that God is not fully comprehensible though.

I believe that the illogical becomes logical because God can do anything.

But then again, our means of the solution may be different, but we both come to the ends of it being that God is all powerful.

"God is all powerful"

Amen.

Humans create machinery? is that not of the same logic? and logic i think is all it is

I am a muslim who believes in an all powerful God.
However, God cannot do ungodly things because it would no longer be God if he could.

For example 'can God create another God?'

God means 'ever existent' - therefore to create another God is impossible for God - does this mean God doesnt exist? no!

It means God is limited to do 'God like things'

can God be mortal and immortal at the same time?
can God be in one place and everywhere at the same time (by transferring his spirit into human form?)

all these questions are used to help atheists tell themselves God doesnt exist - thus allowing themselves to do whatever they like.

A book doesnt come into existence without a writer. A building doesnt come into existence without an architect. Yet the sun, moon, planets. skies, trees, animals, humans (who can see, hear, smell, reason etc) came into being just like that.

Good luck

God is not bound by our logic.

God means 'ever existent' - therefore to create another God is impossible for God - does this mean God doesnt exist? no!

If god is all powerful then he is able to make the logically impossible possible.

God is not bound by our logic.

God means 'ever existent' - therefore to create another God is impossible for God - does this mean God doesnt exist? no!

If god is all powerful then he is able to make the logically impossible possible.

I see so you believe that God can create a person who can see and is blind simultaneously, a person who is visible and invisible at the same time, a person who was born yet has no begining etc etc

Well if thats the case, me and you believe in different Gods. My God cannot do ungodly things. He cannot be unjust, confine himself to a time or space, make himself visible etc because the moment one of these things happen - He ceases to be God anymore.

But alhamdulillah - we have our free will and our own levels of intelligence and understanding which makes us all free to worship the Almighty and believe in him in our own way.

Salaams

I am a muslim who believes in an all powerful God.
However, God cannot do ungodly things because it would no longer be God if he could.

For example 'can God create another God?'

God means 'ever existent' - therefore to create another God is impossible for God - does this mean God doesnt exist? no!

It means God is limited to do 'God like things'

can God be mortal and immortal at the same time?
can God be in one place and everywhere at the same time (by transferring his spirit into human form?)

all these questions are used to help atheists tell themselves God doesnt exist - thus allowing themselves to do whatever they like.

A book doesnt come into existence without a writer. A building doesnt come into existence without an architect. Yet the sun, moon, planets. skies, trees, animals, humans (who can see, hear, smell, reason etc) came into being just like that.

Good luck

God-like things includes all-powerfulness. by limiting what God can and can't do (can't make another God), it is making all-powerfulness false.

So I would conclude that God CAN make another God, but He wouldn't.

This is an argument made by many atheists when questioning God.


Heres my answer.

ABSOLUTELY.

Heres my logic.

• All powerful means even things humans can never comprehend can become true.
• Someting that humans can't comprehend well is contradictions in math/science/physics. Like 1+1=3 will never make sense to a human.
• All powerful is a concept that can do things we can never comphrehend, like make contradictions true.
• God is all powerful.
• God can create a stone He cannot lift.

If you say that its still not possible, then I believe that you aren't wise enough to realize the limitations of the human brain and that human brains cannot comprehend everything. So by questioning all powerful concepts (all powerful is something we cannot comprehend), we dont understand the nature of humans.

So your answer is simply that because we can't comprehend it, it is true?

That makes no sense, perhaps we can't comprehend the scale of the question but it doesn't mean that its true.


Now, can god create a stone he cannot lift?

I would say that if there is an all-powerful god then yes he can because...he is all powerful.

That rock it seems would be in a sense himself but in a rock form, he would create an all powerful rock - perhaps not with "powers" but all powerful in that it can't be altered.

Now, why might this not make sense...

1. People often thing that the power to create is also the power to destroy. It makes sense, most things that we think of that are man-made are able to be destroyed by man, even the same men that created them. An architect can create and design a building and create and design a way to tear it down for example.

2. People also think of the able to lift as being the ability to generate enough force to push an object against the acceleration that pushes them in another direction, i.e. down from the acceleration of gravity. Thus this question instills an image of a huge rock and whether god can lift it, typically physically. But size isn't necessarily what matters. What if the rock was simply in a place that is inaccessible, I don't know necessarily the religious nuances applied, but if for instance god can't enter hell then he creates a rock in hell, he can't lift it because he can't gain access.

3. Also, what if he made one that was unable to be lifted because there is no force to counter it. I.e. he makes a rock in space, i.e. Earth, and he cannot lift it because he has nothing to lift it from. There is no "up" or "down" to have a force against, because "up" and "down" have no definite meaning without something for it to be relative against.

4. What if he made it specifically to not be able to lift it, seems like he wouldn't be able to lift it. Duh.

5. But that doesn't mean he can't EVER lift it. Humans often see structures inolut way we can't move, i.e. mountains, because of their size. So we instead break them so as to make smaller individual pieces that can be lifted.

Eh, that's good enough for now....

I would answer the argument differently.

A stone that is too heavy for an omnipotent God to lift cannot exist as its existance would invalidate the omnipotence of God (which is assumed). It is a logical impossibility. The argument uses a false premise. Ergo, the argument is void and invalid.

This seems somewhat to simply thought of. In order to say that an omnipotent god would need to make a stone he cannot lift would make him omnipotent, you assume that there is only one means of lifting the stone. The question is, Is god omnipotent in multiple ways? Typically the answer is yes, by definition just omnipotent being an adjective without some form of qualification would mean yes. So he can create one because if he can't create one he isn't omnipotent, just as if he could make one, then he would be omnipotent by your logic because he couldn't lift it.

How about this though, what if he found a different way of lifting it.

The rock as a whole for instance cannot be moved, but it can be broken down, into rocks that he can move. This would show omnipotence in other areas thus still showing his omnipotence.

This question is a type of double-bind, either A - He can't create it (thus not omnipotent) or B - he can but he can't lift it and once again not omnipotent, but if he can create it and lift it by other means, can't he still be omnipotent.

This reminds me of Socrates' apology when he says that he was told by the oracle at delphi that he is the smartest man alive. However the oracle often tells riddles that turn out to be the opposite of what was said. Sacrates' then realizes that his intelligence is his recognition that he doesn't know anything. He brings men to the stage to testify to certain political questions of the time, they have answers and claim to know, but that are all different and they are all possibly wrong, but Sacrates' knows that he doesn't know. His intelligence, his omnipotence in that field, is the recognition of a lack of omnipotence in it.

The omnipotence paradox doesn't say "could God lift a stone too heavy for him to lift in any specific way".

My argument is that "it" (a stone too heavy for God to lift) couldn't exist because such a stone is logical nonsense (as God is omnipotent)

I'm not actually sure quite how you're objecting to my argument...

The omnipotence paradox doesn't say "could God lift a stone too heavy for him to lift in any specific way".

My argument is that "it" (a stone too heavy for God to lift) couldn't exist because such a stone is logical nonsense (as God is omnipotent)

I'm not actually sure quite how you're objecting to my argument...

If its any consolation Quenched, I entirely agree with you. Also where does the question of God not being able to access the rock or needing to break it down come from? God isnt physical - he is everywhere so he can access everything.
God doesnt use hands or muscles to pick things up - he just *wills* it to happen.

I have lost the whole relevancy of the question - whichever way you answer this question - God is not almighty anymore because you limit him to not being able to pick up the rock in its strongest form in its 'inaccessible place' or he cant make the rock at all.

'can god ask a question so difficult to answer that he himself doesnt know the answer?'

these things are just designed to confuse people and turn them away from God.

I think the term all powerful but logically coherent is the best description i have come across yet so whoever that was - brilliant mate - absolute gold!

Peace

I think it was Thomas Aquinas (think al-Ghazzali but Catholic)

"Nothing which implies contradiction falls under the omnipotence of God" Summa Theologica I Q XXV, Article 4