"death To America", A common theme Options

[Al-Din'As-Darfur]

Many are doing what they feel is all they can do. Protest against and when the time comes vote for the jackals that support your views.

The few that do it are not enough If people want real change get out there and change stuff.

Did you mean the federal reserve? If so boy could we talk there.

couldn't we though...

To comment on this killer term. From the definitions I've seen everyone is guilty then. Its just the point of view on chooses to take. Some support Isreal who does thier thing. Others support Palestine who does thier thing. Both sides are doing bad things with no regard to the other side. These are not the only 2 countries doing this. Right now I'm most concerned with Darfur and how come we(America) hasn't done anything more than mention we need to help and intervine. Just read U.N peace force won't be in till 2010. What the hell is up with that.

Are you serious?
"Death to America" would solve most of the problems we have.

Palestine and Zionism.

The Palestinians are being occupied, you cant blame a person being oppressed to attack the oppressor, Its when the people dont fight theres a problem. One shouldn't sit back and get killed, WHILE being occupied. Both sides doing bad things? Whats bad about trying to fight an enemy you can't even see? The American people can learn from the Palestinians.

P.S. Palestine is not currently a "country" its being occupied remember, it has no control over its resources etcetera.

How America being gone would benefit them: The regional puppets would fall, Israeli Aid from America would cease, leaving Israel on equal terms with its neighbors...

Darfur

With China being a U.S. ally and the cause for the conflict, how can you advocate that the U.S. "Do something". Hell, anyone from darfur would rather say Death to america than america come help, No one in the region wants America to come in, Have you seen what they did to Somalia? The people of Darfur want Islamic law, The U.S. doesn't want that. China is a key U.S. ally, the two would never turn against each other, the situation in Darfur is no different than Iraq.

Civil conflicts created for the cause of Oil. The U.S. would be a hypocrite to condemn it.

In the cause of Self Determination one needs to destroy its oppressors, be it a Tyrant, Its Currency, Imperialists, or a corporate entity. In Darfur, the JEM fight Daily to obtain the land that they lost in the invasion of 2003, so that the Chinese could look for oil.
In Palestine they fight daily just to send a message to the world, We won't be destroyed so easily.

To put the deaths of Palestinians on the Same scale as the Israeli's is Idiotic. 100 to 1 ratios can't be compared.
To put the Death of the Furi on the same scale as the Chinese or the groups helping them is ludicrous and idiotic. They're dying at an even greater ration than the Palestinian to Israeli death, even the Iraqi to American death toll fails in comparison.

Hamas, The JEM, the ICU, they wouldn't have the opposition that they do if it wasn't for america. What to do when you have the hearts of your people, but the rest of the world hates you?

[Al-Din'As-Darfur]

Two points.

I don't think Patriot supports rape, I think he would condemn that.

I tried him on that one, he said "it happens".

I don't think many people choose ignorance, I really believe that people just ARE and haven't been shown alot of what is happening and/or won't believe it due to the blind trust of government some are brought up with.

When one tries to bring up a counter point and its dismissed in a heart beat, thats choosing ignorance.

The one thing I advocate for change above all is transparency. With that many, many other things fall into place. If we know all we do (you and me and others that realize the lobbyists and "deep pockets") from the current low level of transparency within the government, it raises a dark question of how far does it go?

What can I say, "Only Approved questions get answered". So many Americans Blindly pay income tax without realizing that there is no law...

Last point would be that people aren't necessarily choosing ignorance, like that poll shows that many people are aware of the war and what's happening and don't agree with it.

Oooh how many people say, "I don't like the war, but I didn't vote for bush so its not my fault". People Don't ask why, denying yourself that is the equivalent of choosing to not know hence, choosing ignorance.

There are daily protests all around the country but really the government is not streamlined enough that the power rests with the people, there isn't much we can do other than the next presidential election. With all the asserted power of the executive branch currently, they are not going to listen to the people through legislation or judicial branch (as exampled in cases like the Wiretapping warrants and Cheney claiming he is somehow autonomous from the executive branch and therefore outside their laws)

I wouldn't say "Daily", but its better than it use to be...
In America we have the "right to bear arms", the power always rests with the people, no matter the system, they just have to have the cajones to take it.

[juan]

Many are doing what they feel is all they can do. Protest against and when the time comes vote for the jackals that support your views.

The few that do it are not enough If people want real change get out there and change stuff.

Did you mean the federal reserve? If so boy could we talk there.

couldn't we though...Yes we could. Sad most don't understand how they are ran.
To comment on this killer term. From the definitions I've seen everyone is guilty then. Its just the point of view on chooses to take. Some support Isreal who does thier thing. Others support Palestine who does thier thing. Both sides are doing bad things with no regard to the other side. These are not the only 2 countries doing this. Right now I'm most concerned with Darfur and how come we(America) hasn't done anything more than mention we need to help and intervine. Just read U.N peace force won't be in till 2010. What the hell is up with that.

Are you serious?
"Death to America" would solve most of the problems we have.
Of course then we wouldn't be around to worry about our problems.
Palestine and Zionism.

The Palestinians are being occupied, you cant blame a person being oppressed to attack the oppressor, Its when the people dont fight theres a problem. One shouldn't sit back and get killed, WHILE being occupied. Both sides doing bad things? Whats bad about trying to fight an enemy you can't even see? The American people can learn from the Palestinians.

P.S. Palestine is not currently a "country" its being occupied remember, it has no control over its resources etcetera.

How America being gone would benefit them: The regional puppets would fall, Israeli Aid from America would cease, leaving Israel on equal terms with its neighbors...
Or some other country would come over and take them over. Isreal equal terms with their neighbors. They are equal now. Look at the area and population vs Isreal. It is a school yard of kids against the nerd over there. Then only thing is this nerd is Bruce Lee. America is the only country supporting Isreal?
Darfur

With China being a U.S. ally and the cause for the conflict, how can you advocate that the U.S. "Do something". Hell, anyone from darfur would rather say Death to america than america come help, No one in the region wants America to come in, Have you seen what they did to Somalia? The people of Darfur want Islamic law, The U.S. doesn't want that. China is a key U.S. ally, the two would never turn against each other, the situation in Darfur is no different than Iraq.

Civil conflicts created for the cause of Oil. The U.S. would be a hypocrite to condemn it.

In the cause of Self Determination one needs to destroy its oppressors, be it a Tyrant, Its Currency, Imperialists, or a corporate entity. In Darfur, the JEM fight Daily to obtain the land that they lost in the invasion of 2003, so that the Chinese could look for oil.
In Palestine they fight daily just to send a message to the world, We won't be destroyed so easily.

To put the deaths of Palestinians on the Same scale as the Israeli's is Idiotic. 100 to 1 ratios can't be compared.
To put the Death of the Furi on the same scale as the Chinese or the groups helping them is ludicrous and idiotic. They're dying at an even greater ration than the Palestinian to Israeli death, even the Iraqi to American death toll fails in comparison.

Hamas, The JEM, the ICU, they wouldn't have the opposition that they do if it wasn't for america. What to do when you have the hearts of your people, but the rest of the world hates you?

China/U.S "friendship" is surface deep. Our businesses for reasons I don't agree with go to China for cheap labor. The Chinese do not like us. Matter of fact they plan on ruling us in the next 50 yrs. Why do you think they are buying up all our debts at an alarming rate. What would happen if they called on them all at once. That is probably the real reason we haven't done anything in Darfur.

[Al-Din'As-Darfur]

Of course then we wouldn't be around to worry about our problems.

Talkin about the world, not just america...

Or some other country would come over and take them over. Isreal equal terms with their neighbors. They are equal now. Look at the area and population vs Isreal. It is a school yard of kids against the nerd over there. Then only thing is this nerd is Bruce Lee. America is the only country supporting Isreal?

Are you serious? More like The Big bully who stole the other kids playground, and then the kid goes and gets his other tiny borthers, but then the bully gets helps from the adults.

Israel has U.S. support, and is the only nuclear power in the region, It wa screated from STOLEN LAND. You cant call it the little kid there....Israel was created from U.S. and European weopons, Numbers don't matter when you have nukes...

U.N. security council...The One supporting Israel from the Top is the U.S..
With it gone Israel would be forced to play fair.

There's a reason Egypt and Jordan declared peace, and it aint because they agree with Israel.

You talk about the corporations, they're behind Israel.
You talk about The Fed, they're behind Israel.

The United Nations have issued so many decrees against Israel, none of which were followed. Theres a reason for that,

China/U.S "friendship" is surface deep. Our businesses for reasons I don't agree with go to China for cheap labor. The Chinese do not like us. Matter of fact they plan on ruling us in the next 50 yrs. Why do you think they are buying up all our debts at an alarming rate. What would happen if they called on them all at once. That is probably the real reason we haven't done anything in Darfur.

You forget, Our corporate weapon. The American corporations and The Fed would bail us out If china called us up on the debt...The wars are really being fought by the corporations this time around. Its like a new Cold War.

And It all started in 1913...

Foot soldiers are just a distraction while the real war wages. A War for everything superficial and spirituality worthless.

State Capitalism, It was the definition of fascism, and now we're seeing the fascist U.S. and China battle it out.

China in Sudan, U.S. in Iraq.

Both Security council members.

[Al-Din'As-Darfur]

Actually it is daily.
And your quotes of people are situational, all the statistics show the people are not in favor of the war.

Yes we have the right to bear arms but you know people won't resort to that. I won't even start on that topic, we can leave it at the fact that I think all people recognize that an armed revolt against the government is impossible. They hold a monopoly on military power, there is no way there could be nationwide organized resistance, and we are not at ALL rock bottom enough for a civil war.

Last :: A dead America will solve almost nothing. You're not taking account at all how many economies would shatter. Look at the ripple effect when our stock markets show particularly bad signs. Now think if you had a genocide of Americans or a "dead America"". How is that solving ANYTHING? "Death to America" solving any problem is incredibly ignorant, solving a problem by killing a country...just wow.

Now, I think you know that when I mean a 'dead america' I mean an isolationist america that doesn't try and screw with the world at every chance it gets.

When you say people are not in 'favor' of the war, what do you mean? Do you really think that they're fed up with the amount of people we're killing, Do you really think that they just realized that we're not in Iraq as liberators? Those Statistics you have, would they be different if the U.S. was winning ?

Are you familiar with the works of Marx? Locke? Jefferson? Swift? People put up with a lot of crap, but they don't have too. A civil war is a lot different than an Invasion. The People ALWAYS have the power to change their government, making excuses doesn't help them. Jefferson, a revolutionary himself, knew that there would come a time when his system would be broken, he said and I quote "Every generation needs a revolution." Thats why we have the right to bear arms, A volunteer military would never turn against its own families. SO the Government using the military wouldn't be an option.

If the people can't stand up to tyranny then well, I think swift said it best, people are better off eating their own children if you are to be a coward.

Dead America...man...The End to the Fed, The end to America's Imperial Influence.

Have you all seriously thought that when people say death to america they meant some sort of Genocide?

As much as people listen to Bush/Chaney Speeches, How about Listening to a Certified translation of a speech made by Ayatollah Khamenei, Usama bin ladin, Saddam AL Tikriti, etc.

You sure about the daily part?

[Black-Wolf]

I have been a anti war activist for most of my life. Vietnam historically is where I started. One of the points that has been discussed is why we were so effective then, and now it seems we are not.

Some of the answers are these:

The music played on the radios now are controlled by the corporations, not the dj's anymore. There are now playlists that are set down by the corporations that have explicitly removed any song with the word war in the songs.

Music was the way the numbers of people were out in force to end the vietnam war.

On the other hand, the Anti War movement DID do something to stop this war. In the last major election all the new politicians were elected to end the war. Then what happened?

Nancy Pelosia was a benidict aronld she sold us out, traded away a higher miniumn wage for stopping the funding to the war.

Most Americans that worked very very hard to get the bums out of office, are now discouraged, and now seriously thinking about a revolution. Given up on the Democrats, including mr obama.

The Ron Paul revolution is a example of how many americans are feeling now. Have no standing military, no federal government to speak of. It is a idea that is growing, but is still very small in numbers..

We here do not believe in violent change, but we are willing to revolt. But not by killing people, that doesnt make us any better than those in power.

America will change, and if Obama sells us all out, and continues America's presence in the ME and does nothing about the Zionests, I believe the third party will become a serious contender in 2012.

We are trying to change America, but realisticly I think what you will see is a slow seperation between the states. You will start to see States take more control and give the finger to the Federal Government.

You can see a lot of that happening, even in Oregon not long ago, the Governor told the Feds he was taking back his troops to fight fires. It was unprecedented.

[Sebastian]

I think the best counter argument to your argument is to show places where Non Muslims have said death to America:

Taiwanese People

Hugo Chavez & Venezuela

European

On my own personal experience, I was in Wales UK once and had an American accent and some university students chanted "F*** AMERICA!" "and threw beer bottles at me and my group.

Patriot, the only way to understand how much we as Americans are hated in other countries is to go to other countries.

[Patriot]

Wow... killer, supporter of rape? I can't believe what I have been reading.
I support rape because I recognized that this sort of thing happens ON BOTH SIDES? Did you bother to mention that I thought it to be deplorable? Because I acknowledge it's existence, I support rape? If your news media is telling you that all the Americans do is kill innocent civilians and rape women, I must question your sources. You must really be brainwashed if you don't see that mentality as somewhat biased.
I am sure you would never acknowledge any good that has come or may come from the Americans.
You obviously have taken what I said completely out of context due to your anger and frustration. I will forgive you for that.
I offered a western perspective on some of the more controversial issues that most in the west are very curious about. I did this for two reasons. I wanted to find out if they were true and to give an opportunity to explain if they are. You say Google is the answer, yet the typical reaction to that approach is "biased news source". I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I wanted the "man on the street" Muslim perspective, and I got it… claims of insulting Islam because I asked difficult questions. Personal insults… killer, supporter of rape… etc.

I meant no malice. Yes, I do support the "war of terror" because of the many attacks against many people by Muslim extremists. These extremist are not from any one country or organization. The attacks have come from individuals of every Muslim dominated country in the world. This does not mean I hate Muslims anymore than I hate Christians because of groups like the KKK. I will always support action against extremist of any kind who wants me killed for what I believe. I believe Israel deserved statehood, so I should be killed? I believe the Palestinians deserve statehood too. Do the Israelis want me killed for it? The way I see it… The Arabs want it all, Israel wants a piece and the Persians want the Israelis dead. No one can deny that the Jews did have a piece of the "Holy Land" at one time.

Chuck says the only way to understand the hatred of Americans is to go to other countries. I have been to many other countries and quite frankly I don't see the hatred from individuals I meet and besides, I really don't care if others hate Americans. I believe that many non-western countries have a biased, government controlled media that is used to manipulate the opinion of their citizens. When I see a media that is allowed to say whatever they want about their government, like in the US, then I will have some trust for that media's validity.

So back to the subject… in a nut shell, I upset some individuals because I said things that were true. I say this because either there was no response to a question or the response was just anger at me for asking such a question, or fingers were pointed in another direction to avoid answering the question or the question was only half answered. Evasiveness at it's best. On the subject of circumcision, one responded with, "circumcision has been going on for thousands of years", what he didn't mention was that countries like Egypt, Somalia and many African countries remove the entire clitoris. This is not circumcision, this is mutilation.

Why be angry at me for mentioning things that are true. Because you do not condone them does not make it less true. If they are not done as a result of Muslim beliefs, then be angry at those who do it in the name of Islam… not me!

Your anger is directed at the wrong person, on this subject anyway. Be angry at me for my support of the war, but not for truths that you do not want to confront about Islam. Let me give you an example of what I mean. If the Quran' or a Hadith says a man or woman should be circumcised and explained how it should be done, yet other Muslim sects interpret this in such a way to mutilate and destroy what God gave a woman for a very specific reason… to enjoy the act of procreation, the same as a man. This is an unfortunate truth about Islam. There is no central authority to guide all its followers in the same direction. I believe this happens for cultural reasons… the tribal mentality. Please don't point out that this is true with other religions too. I don't care about other religions and this site is about Islam. I am trying to find out as much as I can about Islam because of the situation in today's world. The more I look at the various religions, one stands out… Islam. No other religion I have investigated has such control over its followers, particularly women. Com'on, don't get upset. Stop and think about it. Death for conversion to a different faith? I would think twice before I converted to say Christianity if I was threatened with death. It appears to be very male dominated, which I guess is alright as long as it is not abused. Too much control has been given to mortal men on issues of an individual's morality. How can such trust be given to men who have proven they can not be trusted with such power. No man should be given this power. In my opinion, this is the root of all curruption

I think the reason many Muslims get angry about comments non-believers or other religions make, is due to what I said above regarding no central authority which has resulted in many different beliefs and religious practices within Islam. How does one come to understand a religion that has such a diverse following with so many interpretations of how to practice the religion of Islam? How would anyone know what is of the "True Islam" and what is not? The only way I know is to ask questions. The reaction to this is almost always ANGER

This post has been edited by Patriot: Apr 28 2008, 01:50 PM

[murkylight]

Why can't some serious changes be made on this forum to reduce this "noise" to a minimum and permit those who seriously desire to seek the answers that Muslims have to offer the ability to ask and get those answers without all the rhetoric?

I see that on other forums they are discussing ways to reduce or eliminate those with malice intent from destroying the peace that our Creator has promised us here.

Some of the ideas are these:

Have levels of freedom depending upon the number of posts made:

The newbie might have only one section available to them, and only certain
subjects will be permitted there.

The next level might gain more freedom to post in places where more sensitive
subjects would be permitted.

The next level might be a approval level based upon how they have done in the
lower levels of the permission structure.

More specifically have sections that are completely off limits to anyone except
those who profess Islam.

Something has to be done about this problem, and there are more than just me complaining about the same thing. I believe God will give us a answer soon.

I still like the idea of giving the thread starter power and responsibility over their threads, but all forums do not have this built into the capability of the software.

In any case, the day is coming where we will see an end to this madness, and the beginning of the forum to meet the expectations and promises they were designed to achieve...

I really appreciate about a forum are the elements of choice, particularly the choice to read or not read a section or set of threads.

This is the third forum I have posted in and I would say that to begin with, they were always a challenge. I know when I came to this forum, I was horrified by some of the posts I read and took great personal offence to them. In fact, some of the statements shook my faith in human-kind. I had to stop reading some of those threads for a while because they just weren't good for my peace of mind (or piece of mind).

However, I was eventually drawn back to them because there was an emotional and social significance to the ideas and beliefs being discussed, as awful as they were to me.

I wonder whether your continued read and participation in these kinds of threads is because they have some form of significance to you. They may upset you but they may also engage you in some way. I see that as a good thing. After all, the world is both beautiful and ugly. I know I want to see both.

[Al-Din'As-Darfur]

Wow... killer, supporter of rape? I can't believe what I have been reading.
I support rape because I recognized that this sort of thing happens ON BOTH SIDES? Did you bother to mention that I thought it to be deplorable? Because I acknowledge it's existence, I support rape? If your news media is telling you that all the Americans do is kill innocent civilians and rape women, I must question your sources. You must really be brainwashed if you don't see that mentality as somewhat biased.
I am sure you would never acknowledge any good that has come or may come from the Americans.

What has America wrought that was good?
A 200 year slavery trade? The Most Tragic and devastating one of all time?
The Monroe Doctrine?
Native American Genocide?
An Imperial Policy around the world, thats killing millions and oppressing many more?

You sir are a brainwashed product of the american media, if you can't see that your media is biased you surely must be blind.

I'm 16 and I've noticed it, for you there is no excuse.

You obviously have taken what I said completely out of context due to your anger and frustration. I will forgive you for that.
I offered a western perspective on some of the more controversial issues that most in the west are very curious about. I did this for two reasons. I wanted to find out if they were true and to give an opportunity to explain if they are. You say Google is the answer, yet the typical reaction to that approach is "biased news source". I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I wanted the "man on the street" Muslim perspective, and I got it… claims of insulting Islam because I asked difficult questions. Personal insults… killer, supporter of rape… etc.

Completely out of context? Anger? Frustration? You support the killing of my people, you call my people names, you support the oppressors of my people and yet you don't expect anger?

This Notion is absurd.

You support the War on Terror, why because you say "americans were attacked", I'm even going to disregard the fact that a lot of your sources are just straight up bogus. You expect America to enslave, oppress, kill, rape, maim and remain blameless? My God, you can't even open your eyes enough to see that the U.S. isn't even democratic. Your too Blind to realize your currency controls your own Government.

I meant no malice. Yes, I do support the "war of terror" because of the many attacks against many people by Muslim extremists. These extremist are not from any one country or organization. The attacks have come from individuals of every Muslim dominated country in the world. This does not mean I hate Muslims anymore than I hate Christians because of groups like the KKK. I will always support action against extremist of any kind who wants me killed for what I believe. I believe Israel deserved statehood, so I should be killed? I believe the Palestinians deserve statehood too. Do the Israelis want me killed for it? The way I see it… The Arabs want it all, Israel wants a piece and the Persians want the Israelis dead. No one can deny that the Jews did have a piece of the "Holy Land" at one time.

That is MALICE, you support the war that is killing so many right now its a shame, you even admit that Iraq has done nothing to you. Why must Iraqis be killed because THEY HAVE BELIEFS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR OWN? You call my people names, you compare them to the KKK which by the way was supported by your own damn government!

America like Israel was created in a genocidal rampage by a group of people who found themselves genetically superior, so I guess you DO have something in common there eh?

Yes, if you want Palestinian sovereignty they will want you dead, haven't you read the news? A guy named Ron Paul, he actually wants a Palestinian state, Israeli's want him dead, Jimmy carter speaks to hamas, Israel wants him dead. American christian walks Palestinian kids to school, gets beat half to death by Israeli's.

The Jews did live in the Holy Land for one time, when the Christians kicked them out we let them in. Zionism isn't Judaism though, Zionism is Racism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

Chuck says the only way to understand the hatred of Americans is to go to other countries. I have been to many other countries and quite frankly I don't see the hatred from individuals I meet and besides, I really don't care if others hate Americans. I believe that many non-western countries have a biased, government controlled media that is used to manipulate the opinion of their citizens. When I see a media that is allowed to say whatever they want about their government, like in the US, then I will have some trust for that media's validity.

What countries and where in them? Have you spoken to anyone in anything but english? were in the presence of REAL people not the fakes put up in tourists attractions?

Biased government controlled media? Are you serious?

That is the EMBODIMENT OF THE AMERICAN MEDIA. Ever wonder why you never heard Ron Paul Give a speech? Or Anyone ever critise Israel on the Air?

For you to say, "non western media" is like that Is Hypocritical, Idiot, and quite frankly Racist.

So back to the subject… in a nut shell, I upset some individuals because I said things that were true. I say this because either there was no response to a question or the response was just anger at me for asking such a question, or fingers were pointed in another direction to avoid answering the question or the question was only half answered. Evasiveness at it's best. On the subject of circumcision, one responded with, "circumcision has been going on for thousands of years", what he didn't mention was that countries like Egypt, Somalia and many African countries remove the entire clitoris. This is not circumcision, this is mutilation.

There you go generalizing, Female Circumcision isn't even that COMON, its a rare thing, and yes, circumcision has been done for thousands of years. In a way, Circumcision is mutilation, depends on how you define it. Hell Tattoos are Mutilation, Plastic Surgery is too. Piercings, etc.

You said nothing that was true, the only thing frustrating is how quick you cling to your ignorance.

Evasiveness, no. I'm coming at you head on, you;ve yet to show any proof to back up your claims.

Why be angry at me for mentioning things that are true. Because you do not condone them does not make it less true. If they are not done as a result of Muslim beliefs, then be angry at those who do it in the name of Islam… not me!

You haven't mentioned anything true to date, just a bunch of lies your government spews that even the FBI doesn't listen too

Goto Usama's Most wanted page if you wish to know what I mean, I've linked you before, if you want to stay ignorant be my guest.

Your anger is directed at the wrong person, on this subject anyway. Be angry at me for my support of the war, but not for truths that you do not want to confront about Islam. Let me give you an example of what I mean. If the Quran' or a Hadith says a man or woman should be circumcised and explained how it should be done, yet other Muslim sects interpret this in such a way to mutilate and destroy what God gave a woman for a very specific reason… to enjoy the act of procreation, the same as a man. This is an unfortunate truth about Islam. There is no central authority to guide all its followers in the same direction. I believe this happens for cultural reasons… the tribal mentality. Please don't point out that this is true with other religions too. I don't care about other religions and this site is about Islam. I am trying to find out as much as I can about Islam because of the situation in today's world. The more I look at the various religions, one stands out… Islam. No other religion I have investigated has such control over its followers, particularly women. Com'on, don't get upset. Stop and think about it. Death for conversion to a different faith? I would think twice before I converted to say Christianity if I was threatened with death. It appears to be very male dominated, which I guess is alright as long as it is not abused. Too much control has been given to mortal men on issues of an individual's morality. How can such trust be given to men who have proven they can not be trusted with such power. No man should be given this power. In my opinion, this is the root of all curruption

Your ignorance IS frustrating, Its called the Internet, you have databases, READ for the sake of god man READ!!!

How can you even say what a truth about a religion is if you don't even know it?
You obviously know nothing about the quran if you think circumcision is in it, or stoning, or death for conversion to another faith.

I think you're confusing QURAN with the BIBLE.

Heck a simple google search "Quan and stoning" you'll get so many learned scholars telling you its not in quran...

Don't get upset? How can I not be upset, A frekkin Moron is trying to Lecture me about my religion without having picked up a quran in his lifetime.

First of all, you're over exaggerating the issue of female circumcision, in those muslim societies that do it, Its Circumcision, NO CLITORIS IS REMOVED!

You say I've been listening to propaganda? You say Islam stands out? hmmm let me think abut that, maybe its because there's an agenda right now. You only see news about muslims because THATS THE ATTITUDE THE MEDIA IS TRYING TO EMBED INTO YOUR MIND. Oh and guess what, YOU'RE FALLING FOR IT LIKE AN IDIOT.

Control? Are you serious? Islam has no central authority, We have Scholars but we don't have some monarch like pope, telling us what to do. That's FREEDOM, something you wouldn't know about.

Fear No one but ALLAH(SWT), thats one of the core beliefs in Islam, he are a people of God-Fear and earthly detachment. That's Islam. TRUE FAITH.

My challenge to you is to find any of the stuff you said is in Islam in the quran.

I'm telling you now you wont find it. Just try though.

Quran is the farthest thing from corruption.
Its been passed down in an unchanged text AND kept in the Oral Traditional.

I think the reason many Muslims get angry about comments non-believers or other religions make, is due to what I said above regarding no central authority which has resulted in many different beliefs and religious practices within Islam. How does one come to understand a religion that has such a diverse following with so many interpretations of how to practice the religion of Islam? How would anyone know what is of the "True Islam" and what is not? The only way I know is to ask questions. The reaction to this is almost always ANGER

First of all "you think" you don't know because you don't know crap about Islam, you have yet to make the conscious effort to TRY and Understand it. No central Authority In Islam. Its Up to the INDIVIDUAL to his or her ISLAM, you say Islam is oppressive but HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A SYSTEM BE OPPRESSIVE IF THE CHOICE IS LEFT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL???

How does one find true Islam, if you weren't such an idiot you'd know it were in your own heart. You get anger because your stupidity and your constant ignorance blinds you at every turn.

[Demonoid1313]

It's either an oppressive religion, or a telling illustration of the mentality of the followers of Islam. We can assume that by the statement "HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A SYSTEM BE OPPRESSIVE IF THE CHOICE IS LEFT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL???" To me, that means that there are an awful lot of Muslims out there that know exactly what they are doing. It's their choice, remember.

This post has been edited by Demonoid1313: May 3 2008, 08:40 PM

[Patriot]

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This post has been edited by Patriot: May 5 2008, 12:12 PM

[Patriot]

Wow... killer, supporter of rape? I can't believe what I have been reading.
I support rape because I recognized that this sort of thing happens ON BOTH SIDES? Did you bother to mention that I thought it to be deplorable? Because I acknowledge it's existence, I support rape? If your news media is telling you that all the Americans do is kill innocent civilians and rape women, I must question your sources. You must really be brainwashed if you don't see that mentality as somewhat biased.
I am sure you would never acknowledge any good that has come or may come from the Americans.

What has America wrought that was good?
A 200 year slavery trade? The Most Tragic and devastating one of all time?
The Monroe Doctrine?
Native American Genocide?
An Imperial Policy around the world, thats killing millions and oppressing many more?

You sir are a brainwashed product of the american media, if you can't see that your media is biased you surely must be blind.

I'm 16 and I've noticed it, for you there is no excuse.

You obviously have taken what I said completely out of context due to your anger and frustration. I will forgive you for that.
I offered a western perspective on some of the more controversial issues that most in the west are very curious about. I did this for two reasons. I wanted to find out if they were true and to give an opportunity to explain if they are. You say Google is the answer, yet the typical reaction to that approach is "biased news source". I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I wanted the "man on the street" Muslim perspective, and I got it… claims of insulting Islam because I asked difficult questions. Personal insults… killer, supporter of rape… etc.

Completely out of context? Anger? Frustration? You support the killing of my people, you call my people names, you support the oppressors of my people and yet you don't expect anger?

This Notion is absurd.

You support the War on Terror, why because you say "americans were attacked", I'm even going to disregard the fact that a lot of your sources are just straight up bogus. You expect America to enslave, oppress, kill, rape, maim and remain blameless? My God, you can't even open your eyes enough to see that the U.S. isn't even democratic. Your too Blind to realize your currency controls your own Government.

I meant no malice. Yes, I do support the "war of terror" because of the many attacks against many people by Muslim extremists. These extremist are not from any one country or organization. The attacks have come from individuals of every Muslim dominated country in the world. This does not mean I hate Muslims anymore than I hate Christians because of groups like the KKK. I will always support action against extremist of any kind who wants me killed for what I believe. I believe Israel deserved statehood, so I should be killed? I believe the Palestinians deserve statehood too. Do the Israelis want me killed for it? The way I see it… The Arabs want it all, Israel wants a piece and the Persians want the Israelis dead. No one can deny that the Jews did have a piece of the "Holy Land" at one time.

That is MALICE, you support the war that is killing so many right now its a shame, you even admit that Iraq has done nothing to you. Why must Iraqis be killed because THEY HAVE BELIEFS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR OWN? You call my people names, you compare them to the KKK which by the way was supported by your own damn government!

America like Israel was created in a genocidal rampage by a group of people who found themselves genetically superior, so I guess you DO have something in common there eh?

Yes, if you want Palestinian sovereignty they will want you dead, haven't you read the news? A guy named Ron Paul, he actually wants a Palestinian state, Israeli's want him dead, Jimmy carter speaks to hamas, Israel wants him dead. American christian walks Palestinian kids to school, gets beat half to death by Israeli's.

The Jews did live in the Holy Land for one time, when the Christians kicked them out we let them in. Zionism isn't Judaism though, Zionism is Racism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

Chuck says the only way to understand the hatred of Americans is to go to other countries. I have been to many other countries and quite frankly I don't see the hatred from individuals I meet and besides, I really don't care if others hate Americans. I believe that many non-western countries have a biased, government controlled media that is used to manipulate the opinion of their citizens. When I see a media that is allowed to say whatever they want about their government, like in the US, then I will have some trust for that media's validity.

What countries and where in them? Have you spoken to anyone in anything but english? were in the presence of REAL people not the fakes put up in tourists attractions?

Biased government controlled media? Are you serious?

That is the EMBODIMENT OF THE AMERICAN MEDIA. Ever wonder why you never heard Ron Paul Give a speech? Or Anyone ever critise Israel on the Air?

For you to say, "non western media" is like that Is Hypocritical, Idiot, and quite frankly Racist.

So back to the subject… in a nut shell, I upset some individuals because I said things that were true. I say this because either there was no response to a question or the response was just anger at me for asking such a question, or fingers were pointed in another direction to avoid answering the question or the question was only half answered. Evasiveness at it's best. On the subject of circumcision, one responded with, "circumcision has been going on for thousands of years", what he didn't mention was that countries like Egypt, Somalia and many African countries remove the entire clitoris. This is not circumcision, this is mutilation.

There you go generalizing, Female Circumcision isn't even that COMON, its a rare thing, and yes, circumcision has been done for thousands of years. In a way, Circumcision is mutilation, depends on how you define it. Hell Tattoos are Mutilation, Plastic Surgery is too. Piercings, etc.

You said nothing that was true, the only thing frustrating is how quick you cling to your ignorance.

Evasiveness, no. I'm coming at you head on, you;ve yet to show any proof to back up your claims.

Why be angry at me for mentioning things that are true. Because you do not condone them does not make it less true. If they are not done as a result of Muslim beliefs, then be angry at those who do it in the name of Islam… not me!

You haven't mentioned anything true to date, just a bunch of lies your government spews that even the FBI doesn't listen too

Goto Usama's Most wanted page if you wish to know what I mean, I've linked you before, if you want to stay ignorant be my guest.

Your anger is directed at the wrong person, on this subject anyway. Be angry at me for my support of the war, but not for truths that you do not want to confront about Islam. Let me give you an example of what I mean. If the Quran' or a Hadith says a man or woman should be circumcised and explained how it should be done, yet other Muslim sects interpret this in such a way to mutilate and destroy what God gave a woman for a very specific reason… to enjoy the act of procreation, the same as a man. This is an unfortunate truth about Islam. There is no central authority to guide all its followers in the same direction. I believe this happens for cultural reasons… the tribal mentality. Please don't point out that this is true with other religions too. I don't care about other religions and this site is about Islam. I am trying to find out as much as I can about Islam because of the situation in today's world. The more I look at the various religions, one stands out… Islam. No other religion I have investigated has such control over its followers, particularly women. Com'on, don't get upset. Stop and think about it. Death for conversion to a different faith? I would think twice before I converted to say Christianity if I was threatened with death. It appears to be very male dominated, which I guess is alright as long as it is not abused. Too much control has been given to mortal men on issues of an individual's morality. How can such trust be given to men who have proven they can not be trusted with such power. No man should be given this power. In my opinion, this is the root of all curruption

Your ignorance IS frustrating, Its called the Internet, you have databases, READ for the sake of god man READ!!!

How can you even say what a truth about a religion is if you don't even know it?
You obviously know nothing about the quran if you think circumcision is in it, or stoning, or death for conversion to another faith.

I think you're confusing QURAN with the BIBLE.

Heck a simple google search "Quan and stoning" you'll get so many learned scholars telling you its not in quran...

Don't get upset? How can I not be upset, A frekkin Moron is trying to Lecture me about my religion without having picked up a quran in his lifetime.

First of all, you're over exaggerating the issue of female circumcision, in those muslim societies that do it, Its Circumcision, NO CLITORIS IS REMOVED!

You say I've been listening to propaganda? You say Islam stands out? hmmm let me think abut that, maybe its because there's an agenda right now. You only see news about muslims because THATS THE ATTITUDE THE MEDIA IS TRYING TO EMBED INTO YOUR MIND. Oh and guess what, YOU'RE FALLING FOR IT LIKE AN IDIOT.

Control? Are you serious? Islam has no central authority, We have Scholars but we don't have some monarch like pope, telling us what to do. That's FREEDOM, something you wouldn't know about.

Fear No one but ALLAH(SWT), thats one of the core beliefs in Islam, he are a people of God-Fear and earthly detachment. That's Islam. TRUE FAITH.

My challenge to you is to find any of the stuff you said is in Islam in the quran.

I'm telling you now you wont find it. Just try though.

Quran is the farthest thing from corruption.
Its been passed down in an unchanged text AND kept in the Oral Traditional.

I think the reason many Muslims get angry about comments non-believers or other religions make, is due to what I said above regarding no central authority which has resulted in many different beliefs and religious practices within Islam. How does one come to understand a religion that has such a diverse following with so many interpretations of how to practice the religion of Islam? How would anyone know what is of the "True Islam" and what is not? The only way I know is to ask questions. The reaction to this is almost always ANGER

First of all "you think" you don't know because you don't know crap about Islam, you have yet to make the conscious effort to TRY and Understand it. No central Authority In Islam. Its Up to the INDIVIDUAL to his or her ISLAM, you say Islam is oppressive but HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A SYSTEM BE OPPRESSIVE IF THE CHOICE IS LEFT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL???

How does one find true Islam, if you weren't such an idiot you'd know it were in your own heart. You get anger because your stupidity and your constant ignorance blinds you at every turn.

I never said anything about the Quran... only what the world observes.

You are in serious denial... or you are living a very sheltered life

Again.... why are you living in America?

This post has been edited by Patriot: May 5 2008, 12:13 PM

[juan]

quote patriot
I never said anything about the Quran... only what the world observes.

You are in serious denial... or you are living a very being sheltered life

Again.... why are you living in America?



Land of the free, home of the brave , and freedom of religion.

[CBO]

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This post has been edited by CBO: May 20 2008, 06:23 PM

[CBO]

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This post has been edited by CBO: May 20 2008, 06:23 PM

[Patriot]

Yes Patriot I'll just throw in some remarks.

"Death to Israel" and "Death to America" are translations of statement that can mean a lot of different things.

For example, Mahmoud Amadi-Nejad has made this statement about Israel. However, when he was asked in New York at their Columbia University, he said he supported a democratic transition where Palestinians get citizenship, and they vote in a non-Zionist government. Then, there would not be an "Israel". The proposal Amadi-Nejad supports is one that some expert American middle east scholars, some of whom are Jewish, also think is the best option overall. So, in his case, "Death to Israel" does not mean what it sounds like.

"Death to America" can refer to aspects of America's influence in some regions. It's not always the same as "hey! If you're American, I automatically want to kill you! Jihad!".


America's political system, in my opinion, is very democratic and really does reflect popular opinion more closely than a lot of governments. When Iraq got invaded, majorities in both parties of American citizens favored invasion, and a minority of both parties did not. After not finding WMD's and not having a quick, easy transition, more democrats than republicans started to become more critical.

When we characterize the opinions of Americans, we have to remember that it's not as simple as being "for the war" or "against the war". Robin Wright, an American journalist, said she was completely against invading. But, now that it's done, she does not support a fast withdrawal, and fears there would be a second invasion to stop a civil war. Is she "for it" or "against it"? Neither. These polls will get different answers depending on what exactly they ask. Some polls ask "do you wish you had not invaded?" some ask "would you support removing soldiers immediately?" some ask "would you support removing soldiers within 1 year?" or "would you support removing Green Zone embassy and military bases in the long run?". There are lots of different questions you could poll Americans about, it's not as simple as for it or against it.

I'd have to check the exact figures, but overall I think it is Marxist-Communists, an explicitly non-theist ideology, who have been most killing. The governments of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao I believe killed far more, per year in power, than any country or government guided by Islam.

For some reason, Marxist-Communist-ultraLeftists almost always support abortion, which only adds to the death count of atheists. Adherents to this philosophy have been the biggest killers. Marxists, historically, are worse than Muslims, Christians, Jews. No group will have a perfect track record by any means, but if we must single out one group as the biggest killers, it is Atheists, specifically, Atheists of the explicitly atheist Marxist ideology of Mao and Stalin.

So, Patriot, it is fine to criticize the murder caused by adherents to any set of beliefs. Yes, there have been Muslims who supported murders that shouldn't be considered authorized. But it would be best to devote your focus to a Marxist message board. Then find a Communist politics message board. Then do the same at an atheists message board. I think Adolf Hitler was an agnostic who used his claims to represent Christianity as a way of rallying German support. So, direct your questions then to the agnostics message board. Also if there is a Nazi-related message board I think adherents to Nazi ideology have a worse track record than Muslims. First focus on groups with a worse overall track record than Muslims.

As far as playing the rape card. There certainly are stories of Israelis raping Palestinians, and I believe some of them are true. Rape is against "official" IDF soldier policy, but rules always get broken, it still does happen to some extent. I'm sure American soldiers have raped. Women got raped in Iraq before the invasion as well.

I think what happens is that the stories of rape just get brought up over and over and over again to whip up anger against the Zionist entity or America. It gets tiring after a while and ends up being a distraction from the real issues.

Ask yourself this: If it turned out that no Israeli had ever raped anybody, would that change your opinion about Palestinian-Israel issues? Rape is not the issue in this conflict or any other. I would still favor a one-state, non-Zionist solution regardless of how much rape happens.

First off I would like to say that I was very please to see a reply that was intellegant, specific and open minded. I thank you for that.

Yes, the rhetoric and accusations come from all sides and no one is free of guilt and I realize that samantics often get in the way of understanding some things that are said, but the real issue is how do we achieve a peace that all sides will accept when there are so many people on the fringes that do not want it?

People like Al-Din'As-Darfur that believe that America and Israel are the devil and all Muslims are justified to fight this devil. Is it possible for people like this to understand both sides of the situation when they are being filled with hate everyday? I think Death to America or Israel means something differant to them than what you propose.

As you say, most Americans are against us being in Iraq, but they still understand that the "War on Terror" must be won and that we may need the help of Muslims to do it.

There are many Muslims in America and virtually all of them that I have spoken to will tell you that "Extremist Islamist" go against the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh) and the word of God as stated in the Quran'. I wouldn't know... I never read it. You tell me... is it true? When I discuss this with people like Al-Din'As-Darfur, I get nowhere. He would never stand up and admit that they are wrong.

Anyway... I have to go for now. I would like to continue this conversation.

Thank you... and may peace be with you

[CBO]

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This post has been edited by CBO: May 20 2008, 06:23 PM

[Demonoid1313]

I was listening to the radio today, and a piece of news came over the speakers that said that Secratary of State Rice was in the Middle East talking to the Israeli and Palestinian leadership about- what- achieving peace in the region. The fair thing to say is that the U.S. government IS putting pressure on Israel to use restraint in it's retaliation. It was the U.S. that pressured Israel to leave Lebanon, and not a military defeat like some would like to believe. That, and Israel was clear with the statement they they weren't at war with Lebonon, but Hezbollah. The group that crossed into Israel and kidnapped an Israeli soldier. And it IS putting pressure on them to come to some kind of agreement with the Palestinians. Bush, the lame duck that he is, is on the record as saying that he wants peace in the region before he leaves office. Whether or not that will happen depends on the Palestinians and the Israelis.

This post has been edited by Demonoid1313: May 5 2008, 08:00 PM

[Demonoid1313]

Another issue is the fact that both sides want Jeruslem. That's what this boils down to. Both cite their religion as the source for their separate claims. That's the danger of religion in politics, and religion controlling too many aspects of one's life. Neither side are willing to share the holy site to them both, although, I'm inclinded to believe that Israel would welcome all Muslims that wanted to worship if they would just stop bombing them and committing acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians. There is a Muslim in the Israeli Prime Minister's cabinet. Another fact is that it was the Arab League(the Palestinians) that rejected the initial U.N. deal to start with and took it upon themselves to attack Israel, a legal state whether they like it, or not. Not to mention the fact that both the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel pre date Palestine in the region of land that we're talking about. History is on Israel's side when it comes to who has the more legit claim to the land in question. It wasn't until between 132-135 C.E. that the Roman Emporer Hadrian began calling what was once Judea, or Judah, or Israel "Palastina" in an effort to wipe out the identity of the region. That's history. That's fact.

This post has been edited by Demonoid1313: May 5 2008, 08:15 PM