Islam's Greatest Perceived Flaw(s) Options

[BrightBroom]

..all are invited!

No offense, dude. But can you use the "quote" function. I am having a hard time figuring out what you're saying and to whom.

Thanks.

[onlinetoenjoy]

chailvr-Can't thoughts be inspired and still be yours?

--> "Inspired" in itself is suggestive of divine intervention; divinely inspired seems to be even more suggestive of god's intervention! However, i agree that both "inspired" and "divine" can also be used to denote superlativeness!

Perhaps, by "divinely inspired" is only meant an utmost degree of (human) excellence; i only seek clarification towards improving my comprehension!

[BrightBroom]

Before the debate gets any deeper I have to ask people what is Islam first. What makes up Islam before we can start to say hey this is a flaw oh look at that. Cause does Islam include its followers?

Quran and sunnah of the Messenger (pbuh) embodies the message of Islam.

[onlinetoenjoy]

brightbroom-None, alhamdulillah.

--> : thumbs up :

brightbroom-No offense, dude. But can you use the "quote" function. I am having a hard time figuring out what you're saying and to whom.

--> I try to put "username-" in front of the addressee! And my reply is preceded with a "-->"

I apologize for the inconvenience!

[BrightBroom]

Juan, the hadith cannot be guaranteed as preserved as Allah has promised only to safeguard the Quran.

Could you cite your proof for this statement, please?

So far it's agreed that:

2) Hadith are not the preserved text, they are historical traditions and open to criticism; therefore they are not flawless

2) The Hadith are not flawless - why? Because it tends to limit the Qur'an to a specific historical situation and that risks it's universality. That's not to say that we rush to conclude that all hadith are fabricated; it really means that one must guard himself from traditions that contradict with reason or empirical facts, and going against your personal right to reason and reflection

3) The Hadiths can be flawed and so they don't entirely live up to portraying the Prophet's example in full.

I disagree, sister.

How are hadiths not preserved? How do they limit the understanding of Quran? and How do they not portray our nabi 's example in full?

Whatcha talking about, bintay!

[Sebastian]

Muslims (not Islams) greatest flaw is the inability to consistently follow the Quran and Sunnah in a non-hypocritical way and the mixing of negative culture and Islam together.

[Binty]

I disagree, sister.

How are hadiths not preserved? How do they limit the understanding of Quran? and How do they not portray our nabi pbuh.gif's example in full?

Whatcha talking about, bintay!

Howdy brightay, .

Brother, read the full post attentively - hadiths are historical, the Qur'an is not historical, it is divine. My History teacher back in the school days (a very genuine man as well) said that a good way of knowing someone in History is to read quotes (in our case, the hadith narrations). So it certainly does portray our prophet pbuh's example but I don't think hadiths exemplify him in entirety, I humbly feel that our approach to the Qur'an and the Sunnah will enable us to understand the prophet better.

Firstly consider this - even though the narrations are authentic, do they not raise several problems? These traditions were written by the companions of the Prophet after his death is why it's special for Muslims, because these are companions who witnessed the prophet - sensed him, literally felt his presence. Among the companions of the Prophet were various kinds of people - some had sharp memories and a good comprehension of problems whilst others had a poor understanding of issues and lacked good memory. Some companions spent many years with the Prophet whilst other spent little time with him. The criteria to judge hadith was based on honesty and integrity (which is excellent) but it failed to judge according to intelligence or comprehension (which is also very vital in formulating Shariah laws). Maybe some narrators had their biases on certain matters which affected what they wrote.

Now my point is this - there are authentic hadiths and ought to be taken as inspiration, example and motivation, however the Ulama view them as unquestionably divine and not subject to change. There is a failure of realizing the rapid change taking place in social, economical, political and cultural circumstances - how are we suppose to deal with this? When the muslim world is divided and have their own sets of hadith, determining how God's laws are suppose to be, how do we keep up with the changes of our society? Isn't the Qur'an the ultimate eternal and universal laws of God?

"Shall we treat the Muslims like the guilty? What is wrong with you? How do you Judge? Do you have another book that you apply? One that gives you anything you want?" (68:36-38)

"Why do they not study the Qur'an carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found many contradictions therein." (Ch. 4: Ver. 82)

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (17:36)

Oh, which reminds me, didn't Prophet Muhammad pbuh say the following in his last sermon:
All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people.

This post has been edited by bin't Zayd: Jun 8 2008, 05:59 AM

[blessing]

Brightbroom: I believe Binty answered that well. Wallahu A'lam.

Also, something else to consider: If hadith were all preserved-why are there certain hadith that are fabricated? Surely...all of them (like the quran) should be equally reliable-IF they were preserved.

[ekz]

Note that hadith are only preserved through chains...and chains can have weaknesses(which have their own principles according to usool e fiqh/hadith)...big subject..

[juan]

People is Islams greatest flaw.

thats quite an illogical statement.

How can people be considered a flaw in Islam? Or maybe you meant to say "human nature". but even that does not make sense.

Cause the people are Islam. They represent Islam. They follow the teachings of Islam. When one thinks of Islam the followers come to mind. Scroll up and check out chucks post. I will agree on that point.

[murkylight]

chailvr-Can't thoughts be inspired and still be yours?

--> "Inspired" in itself is suggestive of divine intervention; divinely inspired seems to be even more suggestive of god's intervention! However, i agree that both "inspired" and "divine" can also be used to denote superlativeness!

Perhaps, by "divinely inspired" is only meant an utmost degree of (human) excellence; i only seek clarification towards improving my comprehension!

This is a great question. I am not saying there is no divinity in the universe. I am saying that any religious text that claims it is the direct word of god is, in my opinion, quite suspect. To be inspired by divine interaction still means that a human is interpreting this realization into human terms, referencing current societal beliefs and images. For instance, there isn't a holy book that will discuss other planets in any great detail, even though one would assume god would know about this. The same for physics or chemistry. It is the life of a human being, within their local context, that is the subject of these texts, along with the ideas of an afterlife, which will also reflect the images and limits of the inspired writer.

I think that the insistence that the words in the text must be the direct thinking of the divine is productive only to the degree that that belief enhances the individual's spiritual growth. After that, I think it's mostly a distraction. Either you as a human being grow through your spiritual practice or not, regardless of whether the book you read is all of what it says it is. If the ideas are great fuel for your evolution, that to me is the core value of any religious text.

[onlinetoenjoy]

murkylight-This is a great question. I am not saying there is no divinity in the universe. I am saying that any religious text that claims it is the direct word of god is, in my opinion, quite suspect. To be inspired by divine interaction still means that a human is interpreting this realization into human terms, referencing current societal beliefs and images. For instance, there isn't a holy book that will discuss other planets in any great detail, even though one would assume god would know about this. The same for physics or chemistry. It is the life of a human being, within their local context, that is the subject of these texts, along with the ideas of an afterlife, which will also reflect the images and limits of the inspired writer.

--> But, why cannot a religious scripture be the direct word of god? Why can god not address humans/societies?

What makes u rule it out as a possibility?

murkylight-I think that the insistence that the words in the text must be the direct thinking of the divine is productive only to the degree that that belief enhances the individual's spiritual growth. After that, I think it's mostly a distraction. Either you as a human being grow through your spiritual practice or not, regardless of whether the book you read is all of what it says it is. If the ideas are great fuel for your evolution, that to me is the core value of any religious text.

--> But, wouldn't the author of such a text, on the whole, be immoral? Or, in the very least, deluded?

[ekz]

Are we looking at muslims or islam? They inetrlink but NOT the same...ISLAM is guidance and for all of Mankind...and MUSLIMS are part of that mankind intending/struggling to abide by ISLAM as much as they can..

Ps A driver crashing his car into a wall does not make the car faulty (if you know wa i meAn)

[juan]

Are we looking at muslims or islam? They inetrlink but NOT the same...ISLAM is guidance and for all of Mankind...and MUSLIMS are part of that mankind intending/struggling to abide by ISLAM as much as they can..

Ps A driver crashing his car into a wall does not make the car faulty (if you know wa i meAn)

Correct but the car doesn't move with out a driver. The car sits there gathers dust, then rusts, then disappears for ever. So what was need the human interaction. At the time of the crash the car was part of the car. If not then the crash wouldn't of happened. I would like to quote Murkylight when he said "Religion without people is just books and buildings". So the poeple are part of Islam in my point of veiw. Now if the follow the teachings of islam, that is another issue.

[ekz]

so whats ur point? confused...

[ekz]

then i disagree...it makes no sense to me...he should rather come out with a statment like 'muslims are non-islamic' -makes more sense...

[juan]

then i disagree...it makes no sense to me...he should rather come out with a statment like 'muslims are non-islamic' -makes more sense...

How would that make more sense. I'm saying mulsim are part of Islam. What you suggested is the opposite of what I have been saying. Without the people what is Islam? If there is no one to read the books and follow the teachings what is Islam then?

[ekz]

Lol...muslims are part ofi slam obvicosuly.all im sayin is ISLAM is a divine way of living, and it is fixed. and muslims are people who have accepted the creed of islam and have promised to follow the guidance of islam to the best of their ability. People should be clear of this. Ws

[juan]

Yes that is why the thread is about perceived flaws. It is a good way to bring issues forward.

[murkylight]

Lol...muslims are part ofi slam obvicosuly.all im sayin is ISLAM is a divine way of living, and it is fixed. and muslims are people who have accepted the creed of islam and have promised to follow the guidance of islam to the best of their ability. People should be clear of this. Ws

This, to me, is the object of my curiosity. The belief that any religion is fixed and eternal is again a concept. In truth, if people stopped replicating the Koran, that very physical act would transform the religion. So I would suggest that what is fixed is the human desire to reach for the spiritual. Many religions no longer exist or have been dramatically altered due to human behaviour in the last 3,000 or so years. But people still want to love and grow.

This post has been edited by murkylight: Jun 8 2008, 03:43 PM