Islam's Greatest Perceived Flaw(s) Options

[murkylight]

murkylight-This is a great question. I am not saying there is no divinity in the universe. I am saying that any religious text that claims it is the direct word of god is, in my opinion, quite suspect. To be inspired by divine interaction still means that a human is interpreting this realization into human terms, referencing current societal beliefs and images. For instance, there isn't a holy book that will discuss other planets in any great detail, even though one would assume god would know about this. The same for physics or chemistry. It is the life of a human being, within their local context, that is the subject of these texts, along with the ideas of an afterlife, which will also reflect the images and limits of the inspired writer.

--> But, why cannot a religious scripture be the direct word of god? Why can god not address humans/societies?

What makes u rule it out as a possibility?

Again, I love your questions onlineto enjoy. They go to the heart of the matter IMO. I think that as soon as you present an idea as being the direct thought of god, you will inevitabley sacrifice personal responsibility for your interpretations of that view. After all, this is god saying it, right? It must be true that you can do this and that because god says it. For me, it is a little too convenient.

Secondly, you end up with a lot of go-betweens, people who think they know better what god means. Now we not only have the abdication of personal responsibility, we have authority figures playing god. It moves into the realm of social politics.

Could it happen? I suppose but if that is the case then I would say that so far, I am not too enamoured with god's ideas.

murkylight-I think that the insistence that the words in the text must be the direct thinking of the divine is productive only to the degree that that belief enhances the individual's spiritual growth. After that, I think it's mostly a distraction. Either you as a human being grow through your spiritual practice or not, regardless of whether the book you read is all of what it says it is. If the ideas are great fuel for your evolution, that to me is the core value of any religious text.

--> But, wouldn't the author of such a text, on the whole, be immoral? Or, in the very least, deluded?

Immoral, no. Deluded, very possibly. Ambitious, possibly. Deeply in love with god and creation and filled with that wisdom, one can only hope.

This post has been edited by murkylight: Jun 8 2008, 04:01 PM

[ekz]

It is faith, faith is what people believe to be true according to scriptures and awareness of the soul, and also what they believe to be right too. Note that faith is not an object thus cannot be proven as a solid material...evidence is however provided by religion(s) to a great extent(via scriptures, prophecy creation etc) but to prove this 100%, one would need to questioning ones own soul..thus i say to the ppl of scriptures, it is not ur job to convert ppl, but only to convey,as only the one who can turn ppl's hearts is the true converter...and that is also part of faith.

[murkylight]

I agree with you except for the part about evidence being found in the scriptures. I can see that inspiration is found in the scriptures. Evidence would be the behaviour of the faithful, in my opinion.

This post has been edited by murkylight: Jun 8 2008, 07:21 PM

[onlinetoenjoy]

murkylight-I think that as soon as you present an idea as being the direct thought of god, you will inevitabley sacrifice personal responsibility for your interpretations of that view. After all, this is god saying it, right? It must be true that you can do this and that because god says it. For me, it is a little too convenient.

--> I understand what u mean, but maybe it *is* god who is saying it after all!

murkylight-Secondly, you end up with a lot of go-betweens, people who think they know better what god means. Now we not only have the abdication of personal responsibility, we have authority figures playing god. It moves into the realm of social politics.

--> Depending on how it is looked at, one may or may not agree with ur terming it as "abdication of/sacrificing personal responsibility"

If it is god who is saying it, the personal responsibility would then be enacting it!

This is how i understand what u have said: by forsaking our own judgement in favor of that which is (apparently) god's view, v are working towards lesser good (or towards harm)!

If i have understood correctly, could u give an example?

murkylight-Could it happen? I suppose but if that is the case then I would say that so far, I am not too enamoured with god's ideas.

--> Exactly what i am interested in! Why?

murkylight-Immoral, no. Deluded, very possibly. Ambitious, possibly. Deeply in love with god and creation and filled with that wisdom, one can only hope.

--> The reason i put forth "immoral" is that the qur'an claims to be a revelation from god; so irrespective of whatever wisdom it contains, a human author would be but a liar (and thus immoral)!

A deluded an inordinately ambitious reformer doesn't sound too promising, either!

murkylight-Evidence would be the behaviour of the faithful, in my opinion.

--> Wouldn't behavior would be evidence of the faithful...if v discount hypocrisy for the moment!

This post has been edited by onlinetoenjoy: Jun 10 2008, 11:05 AM

[murkylight]

So I know there a rules on the forum about about staying on topic. And I am the off-topic queen of the universe. So I will babble on fearlessly, knowing that someone will say something if need be.

Onlinetoenjoy, you are keeping me on my toes! I love feeling like a ballerina!

--> I understand what u mean, but maybe it *is* god who is saying it after all!

And I think that is good news for some people! Right?

--> Depending on how it is looked at, one may or may not agree with ur terming it as "abdication of/sacrificing personal responsibility"

If it is god who is saying it, the personal responsibility would then be enacting it!

This is how i understand what u have said: by forsaking our own judgement in favor of that which is (apparently) god's view, v are working towards lesser good (or towards harm)!

If i have understood correctly, could u give an example?

You do understand me based upon what you have written. My example? Sure - the Crusades. Does that make sense? Really, any account of religious-based violence or persecution in the name of a deity. Fred Phelps is a great example on the Christian front. If you need more examples, I can provide them.

murkylight-Could it happen? I suppose but if that is the case then I would say that so far, I am not too enamoured with god's ideas.

--> Exactly what i am interested in! Why?

Here are some of the elements of my spiritual views that are in conflict with the abrahamic texts:

To me, god is not a rule-maker or a law-maker or a parent or patriarch. And god does not inflict any form of punishment on people, no matter how bad their behaviour is. And god loves endless variation. And everyone gets to go home to god. Everyone. No matter who you are or what you've done.

Now, I'm not saying I'm right about these views. That is why I like to investigate different systems of thought. Particularly the psychological aspects. But it would truly break my heart to find out that god had the kind of rules and laws that were set down in the texts. As forms of human social structure and behavioural rules, I can really see that. But not as the foundations of human growth and existence.

Do you see the Koran or other text as representing the foundations of human life?

murkylight-Immoral, no. Deluded, very possibly. Ambitious, possibly. Deeply in love with god and creation and filled with that wisdom, one can only hope.

--> The reason i put forth "immoral" is that the qur'an claims to be a revelation from god; so irrespective of whatever wisdom it contains, a human author would be but a liar (and thus immoral)!

Not to me. I would not say that someone who feels and believes they are having a revelatory experience of messages from god is a liar and therefore immoral. If they don't believe it and are making it up for polical purposes, then I would consider them a liar. To top it off, I don't think it's immoral to lie. But it sure can cause a lot of harm.

How would you define immoral?

A deluded an inordinately ambitious reformer doesn't sound too promising, either!

murkylight-Evidence would be the behaviour of the faithful, in my opinion.

--> Wouldn't behavior would be evidence of the faithful...if v discount hypocrisy for the moment!

I definitely think that behaviour is the evidence of the faithful's application of their spiritual principles.

This post has been edited by murkylight: Jun 11 2008, 07:43 PM

[poga]

People is Islams greatest flaw.
Well said Brother Juan Ho
As i said before somewhere
You are the best MUMIN who every KAFFIR fear
So well done Juan ho
Indeed ignorant KAFFIRS are ISLAMS greatest flaw

[spencer]

in response to one of onlinetoenjoy's original questions "what makes non-muslims steer clear from Islam?" -- FEAR!

from my perspective, western civilization is so steeped in christianity that the thought of burning in hell by not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord is part of almost every person's experience on some level. that's pretty scary!

[murkylight]

Well, it may be in part that form of fear. although Islam also has a burning-in-hell routine as well. I would suggest that many people also find Islam repressive, like Christianity.

This post has been edited by murkylight: Jun 22 2008, 03:06 PM