The Logic Table - God Exist (any God) Yes Or No, Hoping to be its own thread! Options

I am creating this topic as a place for people to put arguments based on compounding premises. By that I mean this topic is for logical application to arguments, i.e. reasons for why a god may or may not exist. This is NOT a topic where faith is an axiomatic principle, axiomatic meaning self-evidently true. I'm not against faith but I want a thread area (which I hope this topic eventually evolves into) where I can argue with people who will not say I believe it and the discussion is over.

That being said, this topic/thread is supposed to be completely open-minded. It is a place for people to make arguments and debate them out. Please do not post once, assert something, and never come back. Debate it out, that is the point.

This topic is - God Exist (Any god) Yes or No...

I'll start:

No: the premise that it is necessary for a God to create existence is a false choice. If it is necessary for existence to be created, then it is also necessary for its creator to be created. This principle (when applied more universally than just in reference to religion) is usually called the Primacy of Existence. That is simply existence exists as an axiomatic principle (a self-evident truth). To argue against that (i.e. to say it was created) presupposes that it exists to establish that argument. I.e. God is the creator who created existence, however, if before God there was no existence then where did god exist, in fact how did god exist if there is nothing that existed and if god does not have to have an existence to exist than how is it possible for God to exist, for existence cannot exist in non-existence and it is impossible for non-existence to exist, because it doesn't exist.

how does an uncaused god make sense as a means of ending the cycle of cause and effect

your end game seems to be to remove as much cause from the equation as possible

I'll do your job better

existence is the uncaused cause it exists nothing made it or created it boom, guess what, it also makes logical sense because to assert that something created existence requires some form of existence to exist, that existence being this creator at the least and where it lives etc, meaning that to create would really be to expand meaning not initially create which means the concept of a creator doesn't make any sense because it creates the already created meaning it isn't creating see the contradiction

Now juan - any diety the topic doesn't specify however your example doesn't make sense to me

a deity who learned then created

so a deity who created something into existence

that makes no sense because you can't create what has already been created you can however procreate or expand but that isn't the mark of a god or a deity at least not in how i interpret the concept of a god in reference to creation for more explanation for this contradiction look above

how does an uncaused god make sense as a means of ending the cycle of cause and effect

your end game seems to be to remove as much cause from the equation as possible

I'll do your job better

existence is the uncaused cause it exists nothing made it or created it boom, guess what, it also makes logical sense because to assert that something created existence requires some form of existence to exist, that existence being this creator at the least and where it lives etc, meaning that to create would really be to expand meaning not initially create which means the concept of a creator doesn't make any sense because it creates the already created meaning it isn't creating see the contradiction

Now juan - any diety the topic doesn't specify however your example doesn't make sense to me

a deity who learned then created

so a deity who created something into existence

that makes no sense because you can't create what has already been created you can however procreate or expand but that isn't the mark of a god or a deity at least not in how i interpret the concept of a god in reference to creation for more explanation for this contradiction look above

Ok Cameron lets say a being forms and creates another form of life. The created form of life could consider the being that created him his God. That is my point. Even though the Creator being is mortal and has traits of his creation can still be considered God. Even though the being doesn't posses the all power all mighty attributes we put with God. That was my point. Just cause a greater being maybe bald, big head, grey skin created man doesn't mean the grey skinned being was really God but just considered by his creation.

Ok Cameron lets say a being forms and creates another form of life. The created form of life could consider the being that created him his God. That is my point. Even though the Creator being is mortal and has traits of his creation can still be considered God. Even though the being doesn't posses the all power all mighty attributes we put with God. That was my point. Just cause a greater being maybe bald, big head, grey skin created man doesn't mean the grey skinned being was really God but just considered by his creation.

that is not the traditional notion of god but ok let's take up your claim. as proven by the fact that things occur post the initial creation i.e. miracles.

Let's take the premise of the "creator" creating the person who address the other as god. It requires that the necessary things to create that person existed. This is because if that "creator" created the necessary things to create that person he would be creating existence meaning you fall prey to my earlier post about how existence cannot be created.

Now assuming this creator manipulated essentially ingredients then they made this person.

If the creator made the person then it is essentially what occurs when a person makes a table or when a chef bakes a cake, why does that person gain reverence, should cakes pray to the chef to be digested by a good person as opposed to someone with irritable bowl syndrome so they don't become diarrhea? That makes no sense. The essence of worship etc is that the person has the capability to alter your future. I.e. you can go to heaven or hell. This maker doesn't have that capability. Also, how doesn't this person make you it doesn't make much sense. What does it mean to say that someone understands existence. Existence is existence, you aren't created but occurred. Define what it means to be created then I can explain why this concept doesn't make sense.

Also, the essential question, who made this grey skinned creator thing? Why do they not have to be created an we do.