The Logic Table - God Exist (any God) Yes Or No, Hoping to be its own thread! Options

I am creating this topic as a place for people to put arguments based on compounding premises. By that I mean this topic is for logical application to arguments, i.e. reasons for why a god may or may not exist. This is NOT a topic where faith is an axiomatic principle, axiomatic meaning self-evidently true. I'm not against faith but I want a thread area (which I hope this topic eventually evolves into) where I can argue with people who will not say I believe it and the discussion is over.

That being said, this topic/thread is supposed to be completely open-minded. It is a place for people to make arguments and debate them out. Please do not post once, assert something, and never come back. Debate it out, that is the point.

This topic is - God Exist (Any god) Yes or No...

I'll start:

No: the premise that it is necessary for a God to create existence is a false choice. If it is necessary for existence to be created, then it is also necessary for its creator to be created. This principle (when applied more universally than just in reference to religion) is usually called the Primacy of Existence. That is simply existence exists as an axiomatic principle (a self-evident truth). To argue against that (i.e. to say it was created) presupposes that it exists to establish that argument. I.e. God is the creator who created existence, however, if before God there was no existence then where did god exist, in fact how did god exist if there is nothing that existed and if god does not have to have an existence to exist than how is it possible for God to exist, for existence cannot exist in non-existence and it is impossible for non-existence to exist, because it doesn't exist.

cameron-AS FAR AS I KNOW THEY DO. EVEN IF THAT BRAIN IS ONLY IN THE FORM OF THE
NUCLEAS OF SINGLE CELL LIFEFORMS IT DOES THE FUNCTION OF THE BRAIN FOR
SENSORY PERCEPTION, THOUGH THEY HAVE LESS SENSES.

--> Then far as ur knowledge goes u are wrong! A brain is a distinct organ and is definitely not present in all living organisms!

Before u advance more wrong information, i will want it to sink into u that bacteria don't even have a true nucleus!

cameron-I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS THE SUBSTRATUM, I NEVER MENTIONED IT.

--> Ahan! This isn't about who mentions what, this is about making sense...aka logic...or so have i assumed!

Saying "i don't know" doesn't get this dialogue anywhere! I could switch to ur mode and say "i don't know...it simply is" to every single thing...but wouldn't help!

Talking of big bang, when (not in time, but at what point) and how? Do talk on the substratum and the underlying substraum...let me see how u deal with regress!

cameron-1. IF I CONCEDE GOD IS BEYOND SPACE AND TIME AND EVERYTHING ELSE ISN'T:
THEN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR CREATION. THIS IS BECAUSE EXISTENCE STILL
REQUIRES SPACE AND TIME. IF THERE IS NO SPACE AN TIME THEN EXISTENCE
CANNOT EXIST, IF THERE IS SPACE AND TIME THEN EXISTENCE ALREADY EXISTS AND
WASN'T CREATED BY GOD.

--> Huh? I think i clearly stated god *created* space and time; so spacetime is available for further creation!

cameron-2. IF GOD CAN BE BEYOND SPACE AND TIME THEN WHY AREN'T WE? YOUR ARGUMENT
IS ESSENTIALLY THAT GOD DOESN'T NEED TO BE CREATED, THEN WHY DOES
EXISTENCE? THERE IS A NEED TO QUESTION WHERE AND WHEN FOR GOD IF YOU ARE
GOING TO HOLD EXISTENCE TO THE SAME CONSTRAINTS.

--> Asking if god is so and so then why aren't v so and so is a nonsense question! It is akin to asking, "why is giant robot a machine, and kingkong a giant ape?"...they are what they are!

God is immeasurable in space and time for the simple reason that god created space and time! If in the 40th year of my life i make an instrument to record my heart-beats, would it be able to record the heart-beats before i made it? Then, how can god be measurable in time when time is its own handiwork?

God is infnite and eternal! And the creation (ur primordial bubble and what-have-u) are temporal, i.e, confined in space and time! And i would like to see u resolve this infinite regress!

cameron-NOW, YOU ARE GETTING (AT LEAST I FEEL YOU ARE) CLOSE TO THE SLIPPERY SLOPE
OF FAITH BASED ARGUMENTS WHICH MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR LOGICAL
ARGUMENTATION. I CANNOT DISPROVE YOUR BELIEFS IF ALL YOU NEED IS BELIEF
(NO I DON'T INTEND TO CHANGE YOUR MIND) BUT I DO INTEND THIS THREAD TO
ALLOW FOR DISCUSSION TO CONTINUE AND DEBATE TO BE ABLE TO OCCUR.

--> I am basing my statements on less faith than u are! I have partly defined god, can u do the same for "existence"? All u resort to is "i don't know...but it must be this way or that"! If u can present ur convictions *and* also prove them, then well and good! Else, ur statements are but a product of ur faith!

cameron-NO, IT WOULDN'T BE MAGIC BUT RATHER A CHANCE OCCURRENCE FROM THEORIES SUCH
AS DEEP TIME. THERE WAS ALWAYS A CHANCE THAT CERTAIN ELEMENTS WOULD
ARRANGE THEMSELVES INTO A BASIC SINGLE CELL ORGANISM. (A SINGLE CELL IS
ALL I NEED AS EVOLUTION TAKES PLACE FROM THERE.) THERE WAS ALWAYS A CHANCE
THAT ELEMENTS AND ATOMS AND WHATNOT WOULD COMBINE IN THE NECESSARY
QUANTITIES TO FORM A BACTERIUM. NOW THAT CHANCE COULD BE ONE IN A BILLION
(WHATEVER NUMBER YOU WANT). BUT IF YOU HAVE HAD BILLIONS OF BILLIONS OF
YEARS (IN FACT THROUGH THE ARGUMENTS I HAVE SHOWN LITERALLY INFINITE TIME)
THEN THAT CHANCE IS NOT ABSURD BUT NEARLY A CERTAINTY BECAUSE THE TIME IN
WHICH YOU HAVE HAD FOR THE NECESSARY REACTIONS TO OCCUR. NOW WHAT SOUNDS
LIKE MAGIC IS THEORIES THAT OCCUR DESPITE LOGICAL EVIDENCE TO THEIR
CONTRARY AS I HAVE SHOWN WITH CREATION THEORY AND YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY
STOPPED ARGUING LIKE 3 POSTS AGO.

--> See? Another blanket statement: THERE WAS ALWAYS A CHANCE THAT CERTAIN
ELEMENTS WOULD ARRANGE THEMSELVES INTO A BASIC SINGLE CELL ORGANISM. (A
SINGLE CELL IS ALL I NEED AS EVOLUTION TAKES PLACE FROM THERE.)

From where did these did re-arranging elements come about? Why do u always skip the substratum?

Either u are pretending u don't see ur fallacy, or else u really can't see it...either way not good news!

LOOK ABOVE - DEEP TIME ETC. I DON'T KNOW I WASN'T THERE BUT I CAN MAKE A
LOGICAL STATEMENT IN THE DEFENSE OF THESE THEORIES AND LOGICAL ARGUMENTS
REFUTING YOUR CREATION THEORY.

--> Ah!...the g' old " i wasn't there" apology!

Please understand that there is nothing logical about blanket statements! If u really want to issue a logical statement then prove the premise to be sound, rather than just assuming it!

In this case, explain *what* led to the big-bang! I know u can try only upto a certain extent...before being caught up in a regress!

cameron-AHH, AS I FEARED, WE GET INTO A FAITH DEBATE. UNDERSTAND THAT I DON'T
BELIEVE I WILL CHANGE YOUR IDEOLOGY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A DEBATE SO
CAN WE KEEP IT IN THE REALM OF LOGIC WHERE A DEBATE CAN BE HAD BECAUSE I
CAN JUST SAY THERE IS NO GOD I BELIEVE IT AND WE STILL WOULD GET NO WHERE.

--> This has been a faith debate from ur end since the very start...which is why i said it was clever deception to throw in "logic" in the title!

The moment u explain how and when, v can try incorporating logic into this!

cameron-YES, BUT WHAT IS ENERGY BUT MATTER? E=MC^2 PROVES THAT THERE MUST BE
EXISTENCE TO BE ENERGY, MATTER IS A REQUIRMENT. WHAT IS MATTER? MATTER IS
EXISTENCE. SO BELIEVE THAT ENERGY HAS ALWAYS EXISTED, BUT IF YOU DO YOU
ARE BELIEVING THAT EXISTENCE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED WHICH IS MY ARGUMENT.

--> Nopes, u are putting the carriage before the horse! The axiom of perpertualness would be that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but only converted from one form to another; in other words energy has always existed! I have heard of universe beginning as energy; that universe began as matter is something i haven't heard of as yet, that's other than from u!

cameron-MULTIPLE THEORIES PROVES GOD??? HOW? ESPECIALLY WHEN MANY THEORIES DENY GOD. ACTUALLY IT SEEMS GOD WOULD MAKE A SINGLE THEORIED WORLD MORE LIKELY THAN THEORIES SPROUTING FROM EXISTENCE ALWAYS EXISTING LIKE DEEP TIME. CHANCE BEING THE CAUSE OF LIFE MAKES MORE SENSE FOR MULTIPLE WAYS OF THINKING BECAUSE IT DOESN'T DEMAND WORSHIP AND RECOGNITION FOR A SUPREME LEADER. ALSO, WHY ARE THERE SEVERAL THEORIES FOR GOD THEN? WHY SO MANY RELIGIONS IF ONE GOD MADE EVERYTHING?

--> I am talking about ways of thinking...not just theories about god!

cameron-WHERE ARE THESE ARGUMENTS GETTING YOU IN THE DEBATE OVER THE EXISTENCE OF
GOD, EXCEPT OF COURSE YOUR FAITH BASED ONES?

--> A long way! For one, this is another confirmation that logic has almost nothing to do with the attempts of those who set out to disprove god via logic!

All that u have said so far is that human evolution followed the evolution of cosmos, and that the cosmos came ot of primordial bubbles! How the primordial bubbles came into being; how life got injected into the universe; how there came into being animate and inaminate entities are issues which are beyond u: all u do is say "i don't know".

I believe u said something like chemical reactions took place which led to the creation of life; whence these chemicals?

Perhaps language is confusing u, and u are losing urself in terms like "nothing" and "non-existence"...seeking to materialize these rather than treat them for what they are: concepts!

If i ask, "who said that?", and somebody answers "nobody," it doesn't mean there has to be a material "nobody" who said that! It simply means nothing was said...and again don't lose urself by imagining "nothing" being said!

Likewise, when i talk of nothing besides god, u don't have to imagine a state of a material nothing, it simply means only god was!

Having experienced people's inability to conceptualize nothingness, i know this is not an easy thing (if at all possible be it) to grasp! So, to help this discussion, please elaborate:

what triggered big bang? what before it?
whence life? whence primordial bubbles
what is time? how to measure it?
what is space? how to determine it?