Attributes Of 12 Imams Options

Greetings!

What are the attributes of the 12 Imams?

The imams possessed some of the qualities of Allah but to a lesser degree than Allah but to a greater degree than you and I.

(this can also be applied to humans for eg:
'Abu Dharr ghifarri is 'good' '
Allah is 'good'
clearly abu dharr ghifarri is nothing like Allah even though they both share an attribute of 'being good')

Let me cite a few examples:

Imams were the most generous of human beings but nowhere near as generous as Allah as we and the imams themselves would be incapable of calculating the generosity of Allah in terms of the favours he has betowed upon us.

Imams were more knowledgable than all human beings (excluding the prophet ) but not as knowledgable as Allah because their knowledge was dependent on Allah giving it to them pretty much as and when they needed it whereas Allah's knowledge has never increased or decreased.

Imams never did any injustice to anybody but Allah's justice is even greater than the Imams justice because the very existence of imams is justice to humankind because it ensures that we are not subjected to the judgement of tyrants!

There is no doubt that there will be people here believing that i have just committed shirkh but it must be noted that shias do not believe that the imams or the prophets were 'god incarnate' - none of them claimed this and it would folly to believe so.

Imams had a begining and an end whereas Allah has no begining and no end.

Imams depend on Allah for sustenance whereas Allah is in need of no-one and no
thing.

Imams had desires like normal human beings but Allah does not crave things.

Imams see through eyes, smell through nose etc etc but Allah has no body nor senses but yet sees all hears all etc in spite of not having senses.

Having clarified this part, imams also have other qualities which nobody else had:

i) the most pious people.
ii) humbleness
iii) braveness
iv) infallibility (due to necessity - see my article on imamate in the shia corner)
v) handsome to look at and beautiful voices to listen to.

These things were all given to them to help them do their job of protecting the religion of Islam from the hypocrites whom Allah revealed a whole chapter about (surah 63) who didnt really believe in Islam despite praying behind the prophet and appearing to be friendly with him whose real intention was to destroy Islam.

I also recommend you read 'stories from the lives of the 14 infallibles' in the shia corner as these anecdotes provide a good insight into who the imams were and why the shias love and honour them so much.

If there any particular attributes that i omitted or put in which you want further clarification on, do not be shy to ask and hopefully someone will be able to clarify.

salaams

Jazakah Allah khiar, I appreciate the response brother.

Is it possible to get the attributes of such imams from credible sources ( I dont necessarily mean bukhari here lol) But your own credible sources whether its hadiths or your scholars.

if you considered shia sources credible, then we probably would not be having the discussion.

I strongly suggest you listen to the lecture posted on the wilayat of Ali ibn ABi Talib in the shia corner.

The points i have made are widely accepted by all shias including our scholars.

With all due respect, what was the purpose of the question?

My response either had something which you felt needed 'scholarly support' or was lacking something which you felt that perhaps i may discover if i research what scholars have said about the issue.

Whichever one it is, i would appreciate it if you could clarify so that insha allah we can make some progress.

peace be with you.

I dont hold many sources credible, i just want to be 100% clear on the attributes of imamate.

Though, honestly whether the belief had support or not matters little to me as long as i have the correct perception of the concept - and from then i will see whether it is a conflicting concept.

The imams possessed some of the qualities of Allah but to a lesser degree than Allah but to a greater degree than you and I.

(this can also be applied to humans for eg:
'Abu Dharr ghifarri is 'good' '
Allah is 'good'
clearly abu dharr ghifarri is nothing like Allah even though they both share an attribute of 'being good')

Let me cite a few examples:

Imams were the most generous of human beings but nowhere near as generous as Allah as we and the imams themselves would be incapable of calculating the generosity of Allah in terms of the favours he has betowed upon us.

Imams were more knowledgable than all human beings (excluding the prophet ) but not as knowledgable as Allah because their knowledge was dependent on Allah giving it to them pretty much as and when they needed it whereas Allah's knowledge has never increased or decreased.

Imams never did any injustice to anybody but Allah's justice is even greater than the Imams justice because the very existence of imams is justice to humankind because it ensures that we are not subjected to the judgement of tyrants!

There is no doubt that there will be people here believing that i have just committed shirkh but it must be noted that shias do not believe that the imams or the prophets were 'god incarnate' - none of them claimed this and it would folly to believe so.

Imams had a begining and an end whereas Allah has no begining and no end.

Imams depend on Allah for sustenance whereas Allah is in need of no-one and no
thing.

Imams had desires like normal human beings but Allah does not crave things.

Imams see through eyes, smell through nose etc etc but Allah has no body nor senses but yet sees all hears all etc in spite of not having senses.

Having clarified this part, imams also have other qualities which nobody else had:

i) the most pious people.
ii) humbleness
iii) braveness
iv) infallibility (due to necessity - see my article on imamate in the shia corner)
v) handsome to look at and beautiful voices to listen to.

These things were all given to them to help them do their job of protecting the religion of Islam from the hypocrites whom Allah revealed a whole chapter about (surah 63) who didnt really believe in Islam despite praying behind the prophet and appearing to be friendly with him whose real intention was to destroy Islam.

I also recommend you read 'stories from the lives of the 14 infallibles' in the shia corner as these anecdotes provide a good insight into who the imams were and why the shias love and honour them so much.

If there any particular attributes that i omitted or put in which you want further clarification on, do not be shy to ask and hopefully someone will be able to clarify.

salaams

Exactly that.

oh yeh some more info

they did exactly what prophet saw did without any changes. everything they taught is exactly what prophet muhammed saw taught.

they are direct descendants of prophet saw.

they are appointed by Allah therfore out of five brothers only one may be an imam with an exception of imam hasan and imam hussain .

imam mahdi as who will come with prophet isa is the 12th imam.
and they were all martyred either through poison or sword.

except imam mahdi as who is alive!

the shia perspective is that usool e deen must be justified logically and qu'ranically.

imamate through logic can be justified because it is more logical to believe that the prophet (saww) appointed a successor by the will of Allah rather than leaving a matter of such critical importance in the hands of the muslims at large to appoint their own (when in reality only a handful had any say in the matter anyway!).

It stands up quranically because there are several ayats in the quran which clearly show that there is a rank called imamate, allah chooses his own representatives on earth, we must obey 'those in authority' (and when this is put in conjunction with the verse telling us that (i) only allah can choose his representatives and (ii) we must not obey sinners - we come to the only conclusion that the imams must be obeyed and are sinless.

(for a full and frank assessment of this - visit the topic called 'wilayat of ali ibn abi talib' in the shia corner which has a 7 part lecture on the topic delivered by sayed ammar nakshawani).

This is not the debate forum and I fear this response will result in an onslaught on why shias are wrong to believe in imamate.

It is for this reason that I again urge you sister kellyjaz to come forth and explain what attributes about imamate that have been discussed thus far or omitted thus far that you want sources for due to your reluctance to accept many sources as credible.

If there is something in particular i said or missed out that you wish me to get you a reference for - then tell me what it is and i will find it for you.

Otherwise I am at a complete loss as to where this discussion is headed.

Peace be with you.

This post has been edited by Moostee: Jul 1 2008, 12:19 PM

It should matter little where this discussion is headed.

I'm merely asking for support to this belief in YOUR books, that is all. There is no agenda here, no debates.

Ok - let us use the Qu'ran because it is a reference point that not only do we share but we also agree in its complete perfection.


28:68 Thy Lord does create and choose as He pleases: no choice have they (in the matter): Glory to Allah. and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!


This verse talks about Allah's authority in creation and Allah's authority in choosing his leaders whom He wills to protect his religion on earth. It even goes so far as to say that nobody else has a say in the matter - we must merely follow whoever He chooses.

2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Allah sends khalifa on earth. Angels suggest he will make mischief and bloodshed. Allah tells them he knows what they know not. This shows that not even the angels have any say in the matter of Allah appointing his caliphs on earth.

2:247 Their Prophet said to them: "(Allah) hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "(Allah) hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."

This establishes that only Allah chooses his representatives on earth, he blesses his representatives on Earth with knowledge and strength because these are the qualities that Allah values ahead of wealth.

20:23-36:

29. (Moses said:) "And give me a Minister from my family,

30. "Aaron, my brother;

31. "Add to my strength through him,

32. "And make him share my task:

33. "That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint,

34. "And remember Thee without stint:

35. "For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."

36. ((Allah)) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"

Even Moses (a) could not appoint his successor. He could only ask Allah to make Haroon (a) his minister and add to his own strength through Haroon (a). Now we know that Allah has authority over creation and choice of his representatives, the angels have no say in the matter, Allah values strength and knowledge in his representatives on Earth and even great prophets such as Moses (a) cannot appoint their own successors and can only recommend to Allah who they wish to succeed.

23:70 So the magicians were thrown down to prostration: they said, "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses".

When the magicians were defeated by the staff of Musa (a), they fell into prostration and submitted to the Lord of Haroon and Musa (a).
They did not submit only to Allah.
They did not submit to Allah and acknowledge that Moses was his prophet.
No - they submitted to Allah, acknowledged the prophethood of Musa and the appointment of Haroon (a). This is the three stage kalema of the shias today also. When the prophet (saww) said that the position of Ali towards the prophet is like that of Haroon (a) to Musa , it is very easy to understand the shia kalema in light of this verse.

2:124 And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

This verse shows that imamate is higher than prophethood because Allah made prophet ibrahim (a) an imam after he fulfilled certain tasks.
It also shows that there will be imams from the line of prophet ibrahim because Allah does not refuse him but merely sets the condition.
Finally this verse shows that the imams are completely infallible because it does not say that the evildoers cannot reach up to the promise but rather Allah's promise of imamate will never reach the evildoers.


3:61 If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"

This verse shows that the prophet (saww) considered Ali ibn Abi Talib (a) as the closest to himself because this verse does not appear to include Ali (a).
'sons' was referring to al-hassan(a) and al-hussain (a), women was referring to fatema (a) and self was referring to the prophet himself. Therefore when he took Ali as well it is to show the world that Ali (a) is like the prophet's mirror image.


4:59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

When Allah tells us to obey those in authority - it can either mean that the people are appointed by Allah himself or people we appoint on our own. Considering Allah has explicitly said (shown earlier) that we have no right to choose anything and that we can only follow, it is clear that the people in authority here must also be chosen by Allah.

However, let us look at where a derivative of the word 'obey' (atee) is used elsewhere in the quran and the situation will become all the more clearer.

76:24 Therefore be patient with constancy to the Command of thy Lord, and hearken (derivative of ati used here) not to the sinner or the ingrate among them.

If Allah is telling us to obey those in authority and then telling us not to obey sinners, then it is natural that the people in authority Allah is talking about elsewhere must be sinless.

33:33 And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to keep away all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

If this verse was revealed to 'remove' filth from the ahlul bayt and keep them spotless thereafter, then surely the younger members of the household of the prophet would be greater than the prophet himself because they would have become purified when they were young children whereas the prophet was in his forties. We must all agree this is totally irrational and therefore the prophet and the whole ahlul bayt were already purified and sinless and Allah was merely informing us at this particular time. (Much like Allah was already one before 'qul huwallahu ahad' was revealed).

5:55 -56: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

56. As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.

This was revealed about Ali ibn Abu Talib (a) when he gave his ring in charity while in rukuh. When the Quran says that we should only take Allah, his messenger and Ali (a) - we hear and we follow.

Finally, the event of ghadeer which surely does not need references because it is the most widely accepted historical fact amongst all schools in that the prophet said 'whoever i am the mawla of, ali is also their mawla'.
What you find is that in arabic - mawla has 23 different meanings including 'master, slave and friend'. Therefore you must go out and study the context of why the prophet (saww) said this and draw your own conclusions.


Therefore, we conclude that the imams were appointed by Allah, they were infallible, they were knowledgable and they were brave.

From these qualities, come the qualities i have mentioned such as being just (cannot be unjust *and* infallible) etc etc.

Peace be with you.

Reported by Uthman ibn Isa al- Amiri on the authority or Jabir ibn al- Hurr, on the authority of Juwayriyya ibn Mishar al- Abdi, who said:

When we set out with the Commander of the faithful, peace be on him, to Siffin. We reached the plains of Karbala. He stood at the side of the camp and looked right and left. He cried and he said:
"By God, this is the place where the camels will kneel for their riders. This is the place of their fate."

"Commander of the faithful, what is this place?" he was asked.

"This is Karbala," he said. "Here people will be killed who will enter heaven without any reckoning (against them)."

Then he went on and the people did not understand the explanation of what he had said until the tragedy of al-Hussain ibn Ali, peace be on him, and his followers took place on the plain. Then those who had heard his words recognised the truthfulness of what he told them.

This has been (a summary) of his knowledge of the unknown and his telling what would happen before it happened. It is clearly miraculous in nature and wonderful knowledge as we have mentioned. Reports conveying the same sense are so numerous that their explanation would make the book unduly long. What we have presented is sufficient for our intention.

Shaykh al Mufid on the Power of the Unseen of Imam Ali

I have heard of Imam Mehdi, do you believe in him too?

I have heard of Imam Mehdi, do you believe in him too?

Majnoon: Yep

JJ: Oh and what about Dajjal him too?

Rizwan: ya he's the bad guy.



This post has been edited by Moostee: Aug 29 2008, 10:56 PM

This is a thread dedicated to the attributes of the imams of the ahlul bayt .
if you wish to ask the shias any questions that spring to mind, feel free to open up a new topic in the shia corner and the brothers and sisters will insha allah try to answer your queries in that thread.

peace be with you.

hello