Not A Moslem, Not An Enemy, Politically incorrect with Bill Maher Options

[Monarque]

"I mean, yes, there are some extreme examples that you hear about -- the man who shot the Sikh, because he had a turban on, and that poor guy, a Sikh, is not a Moslem, he is not one of our enemies, and I am sure he was there saying, 'Please, I am not a Moslem'. And the guy was like, 'Close enough, buddy'."

This was a few days after 9/11; what do you guys (Moslems and non-Moslems) make of this quote by him?

[wonderer]

creepy, sad, and a lil funny.. not funny to the guy got killed I bet..

[Monarque]

Yeah, he was not an enemy. The next time Moslems go on a spree, Sikhs might want to consider wearing "Not an enemy" placard over their turbans.

But coming back to Maher, is the guy saying that it would not have been an extreme reaction had a Moslem been shot dead? Is it just me? Or could it be that he was trying to say something else and ended up sounding so peculiar and suggestive?

[rizwan]

its not easy to determine what he is trying to say about muslims from this quote.

you'd have to look at more quotes and opinions.

[Moostee]

'i mean yes...'

it would help to know the question he was asked before the quote as it could be used to determine the context in which he is talking.

[Monarque]

<< its not easy to determine what he is trying to say about muslims from this quote.

What do you make of that particular quote?

If you want more stuff from him, then you might want to lay your hands on a tape of the show with the bold and beautiful Ayaan Hirsi.

<<it would help to know the question he was asked before the quote as it could be used to determine the context in which he is talking.

A mini debate over whether America was reacting calmly or hysterically to 9/11.

[Nazia1987]

Personally I always like Bill Maher. I disagree with a lot of his opinions, but I think he always had the balls to come out and say what he believed. That I have a tremendous respect for. His show got canned by ABC for that very reason. I used to watch Politically Incorrect all the time when I was younger.

But if Bill Maher is having a problem with Muslims... he is having a problem with Christians... and every other religious group as I think he is outspoken against religion. But I dont think he hates Muslims. I think the quote is probably taken out of context. Maher really can't stand religion of any type... it doesn't mean he hates people who are religious he just thinks we are disillusioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYW2xXxFVtU

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: May 1 2010, 10:36 AM

[Monarque]

Right, Nazia1987. He is a conscientious, rational human being, an atheist, and he would diss the OT just as readily as he would the Coran. And though the views of all our esteemed forummers are welcome, I am not specifically asking about his overall opinion of Moslems, nor whether he reserves a special treatment for Islam. I believe this show was a couple of days after he put his a_ss on the line with his comments about cowardice, and he made some "clarification" about it here.

Returning to the quote, what kind of context do you think is missing? He did, a few minutes later, mention as another example of hysteria the guy in the emergency room who tried to strangle a Paki doctor, so there's one if you want. What do you just make of the quote itself? An attempt to be funny which sounds a little peculiar in hindsight? Does it, the way it has come out, at all sound peculiar to you?

This post has been edited by Monarque: May 1 2010, 01:43 PM

[Nazia1987]

Right, Nazia1987. He is a conscientious, rational human being, an atheist, and he would diss the OT just as readily as he would the Coran. And though the views of all our esteemed forummers are welcome, I am not specifically asking about his overall opinion of Moslems, nor whether he reserves a special treatment for Islam. I believe this show was a couple of days after he put his *** on the line with his comments about cowardice, and he made some "clarification" about it here.

Returning to the quote, what kind of context do you think is missing? He did, a few minutes later, mention as another example of hysteria the guy in the emergency room who tried to strangle a Paki doctor, so there's one if you want. What do you just make of the quote itself? An attempt to be funny which sounds a little peculiar in hindsight? Does it, the way it has come out, at all sound peculiar to you?

hmm... like i think everyone else is saying to, it's difficult to say an opinion about that quote without maybe seeing a video clip... if he was being 100% literal and saying "Muslims = our enemies, everyone else = not our enemies" then honestly I would think he is just another ignorant *******... but i dont think that's how he was saying it. at least that's based on about 10 years of being a fan of his and all... was he referring to fanatical religious extremists as our 'enemies"? Then yes then I'd have to agree with him. Fanatic religious extremists of ANY religion are enemies to most people... but I don't even assume thats what he was insinuating. do u have a video link by chance?

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: May 1 2010, 01:41 PM

[Monarque]

He hardly talked, if at all he did, about Moslems apart from the two places I mentioned. I have found a link on yt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSVElacXWjE Politically Incorrect, about a week after 9/11 part 1 of 2

Hope that helps you find a context.

By the way, are you aware that he probably thinks of all Moslems as two-faced extremists? In the show with the lovely Ayaan he asserts that Islam has always been extremist, with the warrior Mahomet at the helm. And in another place he talks of them as being in a state of denial to outsiders about their true values (or something like that).

[Nazia1987]

hey thanks for posting the link

After seeing it now I think I have a better understanding of the quote at least. The quote came under the context of a conversation discussing whether or not the American people were in some sort of hysteria v. a calm after 9/11... so I understand what he was saying. He was disagreeing and saying that the American people were NOT being calm (this was 2 weeks after 9/11) and giving an example of a lunatic who went out and shot a Sikh because he thought he was a Muslim. After 9/11, everyone equated Muslims with the "enemy". I don't think Bill Maher was saying this, he was saying "look, we're not (As a nation) calm right now". That's my opinion at least. I thought he separated the words Muslim and enemy... I don't think he was equating one with another.

Actually if you keep listening about a minute later, one of the guests brings up the rhetorical question: "what if Christians in Indonesia slaughtered 4000 Indoanesian Muslims... would they fair so well as Muslims in America?" And Bill Maher cuts him off and insinuates that : "yes we SHOULD be better than that!" That is great to hear cus I'll tell you EVERY time I debate with a non-Muslim about Islam, they go into this crap of "of if christians in Saudi Arabia did this or that..." almost as though we as Muslims shoudl be thanking those around us for hating us, which is stupid. It's like saying intollerance elsewhere excuses intollerance here. I think Bill Maher stood up and said that's a stupid point to make.

By the way, are you aware that he probably thinks of all Moslems as two-faced extremists? In the show with the lovely Ayaan he asserts that Islam has always been extremist, with the warrior Mahomet at the helm. And in another place he talks of them as being in a state of denial to outsiders about their true values (or something like that).

Like I said... Bill Maher is openly and vehemently against organized religion of any type... that's his right to hold that opinion. Even as a Muslim I agree with many aspects of that opinion. It's organized religion that drives people to become finatics and kill each other over disagreed beliefs. And there is something to be said for the history of Islam... it IS intertwined with war and death... we can not deny that as Muslims. I am not talking about the Prophet's time when Muslims were being persecuted and they were fighting back and defending themselves, but look at the spread of Islam after the death of the Prophet. Look at our muder amongst ourselves as an Ummah. (look at the deaths of caliphs, sunni / shia divisions IMMEDIATELY following the Prophet's death). This is a bad on our part and it's fair game to bring up in a debate because you know what it's true! Just as it's true that the spread of Christianity was at the sword and amongst a lot of death as well! Unfortunately that IS the problem with organized religion.... unfortunately we as an ummah ARE still doing some terrible crap in this world under the excuse of religion, and the world is watching that and the actions of a vocal minoirity are affecting those of us who love Islam for it's real meaning (peace!). That's why I think it's our responsibilty to stand up to such bullies and let it be known to the world that we as a religion don't want to be associated with such crooks.

By the way, are you aware that he probably thinks of all Moslems as two-faced extremists?

I can not say what he "probably thinks" because I am NOT him. Anyone who were to generalize an entire group of people (whether its on the basis of religion, or ethnicity, or anything) is simply ignorant in my book and I don't look up to or associate with such people, whether they are athiests, Christians, or Muslims who are doing the stereotyping and judgement. The day I think he's that way, I won't be a fan any longer. But until then, I consider him to be intelligent and have a strong opinion that even though I disagree with it, I respect it. We all have opinions.

And in another place he talks of them as being in a state of denial to outsiders about their true values (or something like that).

Again it's something that I wouldn't be able to take in unless I saw a link or a video link or something, especially since you aren't even completely sure of what exactly he said.

Hey listen... it's just that, there are so few political media personalities I have any respect for at all... even ones I agree with (I'm an uber liberal so there aren't many) I usually feel are simply saying what they say to cater to their audience, to fit in some mold whether it be conservative or liberal... but I've always felt Bil Maher is a fresh voice and he isn't trying to censor himself or agree with anyone. He is what I would love to see all over the media. He's not afraid to say what he thinks and I think everything he says , he is being genuine to himself. In other words, he's not a tool like 99% of political loudmouths in the media. I have tremendous respect for that (in anybody!)

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: May 1 2010, 05:42 PM

[Monarque]

Thanks for your interesting response to the quote, Nazia1987. If I have it right then this one was on 9/20.

Coming to my "two-faced extremists" comment, Ayaan referred to 9/11 while dismantling the myth of Islam being a religion of peace, and another guy butted in and argued that 9/11 was probably radical extremists, at which point Maher clarified that Islam was extremist to begin with, that Mahomet was a warrior (would you construe that as a compliment to the Moslem leader?)

Another piece wherein he was asking Moslems about the Coran's cussing the infidels and seeking their blood, and then he remarked that they (Moslems) are in a state of denial to an outsider, that they will refuse to admit (to an outsider) that anything is wrong with their values or culture.

I put the two together and said that he probably thinks of Moslems as two-faced extremists. That said, there has been an occasion (or two) where he has objected to typifying all Moslems based on certain incidents as bigotry. And, yes, the guy deserves credit for not trying to appease Moslems a la W.

[Monarque]

>>one of the guests brings up the rhetorical question: "what if Christians in Indonesia slaughtered 4000 Indoanesian >>Muslims... would they fair so well as Muslims in America?"

That fat ba_stard of a hypocrite apparently has his head so high up his a_rse that he has been blinded to hard facts.

This post has been edited by Monarque: May 2 2010, 07:01 AM

[Nazia1987]

Hey first off, thanks for the debate. This one is really interesting to me. I hope you don't take anything I am saying in offenseE!

Another piece wherein he was asking Moslems about the Coran's cussing the infidels and seeking their blood, and then he remarked that they (Moslems) are in a state of denial to an outsider, that they will refuse to admit (to an outsider) that anything is wrong with their values or culture.

but you have to admit, there is some truth in that. Many Muslims DO deny that there is anything "wrong" in the history of Islam or wrong with our cultures. We all sit here and say Islam is the religion of peace, because to us, it is, but for some lunnies out there it surely is NOT, and they DO find this justification in some warped way from the Qu'ran and hadith (the same way some crazy Christians find justification to blow up abortion clinics!). That's why I said we as Muslims need to begin accepting this and moving on. Yes there has been some terrible crap done in the name of Islam. But instead of simply ignoring that and saying "oh that's only a small minority don't judge us" why don't we admit that there ARE problems in many of our cultures that lead to such terrible things? Look at honor killings? This crap continues to happen throughout the Muslim world, yet where is the general outcry from the Ummah? What about the treatment towards women. You bring up the topic with most Muslim men and it's like they suddenly have this denial that there ARE women who are treated like crap in communities on the justification of Islam. Suddenly they just go into this argument about how, the west has deomestic violence as well , and how, Islam gave women so many rights. Yes these are true, but it IS also true that there is a huge problem with women's treatment in Islam at the same time. I bring up an incident where the religious police in Mecca wouldn't let school girls out of a burning school building because they did not have abaya, beating some of them to force them inside and beating bystanders who were trying to help, and as a result 15 young girls died. 15 of our sisters in Islam. Yet where is the outcry from our community! Had it been one Muslim girl in the west killed by a non-Muslim because of bigotry, our community would be hysterical. But something of tragedy within our own culture it's like we want to pretend it never happened. You see what I'm saying? We need to own up to these problems or to any sane person as a community or of course we will look as though we are in denial. i think we are in denial as a community. We are so afraid as coming off as looking extremist to the western world that we tend to deny any problems that do occur. Guess what, every group has problems. Why don't we try and be the first ones to admit them and that's the first step in stopping them! I think most of the problems in the Muslim community, if not all of them, come from culture and not religion at all. But we are the ones that need to admit that and let others know

Coming to my "two-faced extremists" comment, Ayaan referred to 9/11 while dismantling the myth of Islam being a religion of peace, and another guy butted in and argued that 9/11 was probably radical extremists, at which point Maher clarified that Islam was extremist to begin with, that Mahomet was a warrior (would you construe that as a compliment to the Moslem leader?)

About the Prophet being a warrior. Why are we denying this? Yes Muslims were being persecuted and were defending themseleves in the Prophet's time, but there was still fighting and killling going on during so much of that time, hence several not so nice versus in the Qu'ran... see Muslims don't tend to discuss this and so when non-Muslims hear it they will form their own opinions.

Just because it's not a compliment to our religion doesn't mean I consider him a hypocrite or a bad person. It's his opinion. I will never see Bill Maher compliment any organized religion. He won't do it. I would consider him a ******* if he was ONLY singling out one religion and ignoring the rest. But he has a critisism of all religions.

put the two together and said that he probably thinks of Moslems as two-faced extremists. That said, there has been an occasion (or two) where he has objected to typifying all Moslems based on certain incidents as bigotry. And, yes, the guy deserves credit for not trying to appease Moslems a la W.

I can see where anybody would put two and two together. But just watch more of his material. You will see that what the man stands up for is the right for people to believe what they want, no matter how stupid he considers it to be. He is terribly against organized religion like I said, and has a problem with every single religion. But this hatred of religion that he has is based on a hatred for ignorance that he has (he thinks both are related), which is why he will shoot down (verbally lol) people who are going to make ignorant stereotypes of any group.

That fat ba_stard of a hypocrite apparently has his head so high up his a_rse that he has been blinded to hard facts.

Ya he sure did, he was making me crazy just too watch. But believe me there are many people who, right after 9/11 (and still today) wouldn't have cut off his argumenet and would have just agreed with him. But Bill Maher cut his argument off and was invalidating it because it was so utterly stupid. And I think he always will cut off a stupid, baseless argument.

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: May 2 2010, 08:11 AM

[Monarque]

<<Hey first off, thanks for the debate. This one is really interesting to me. I hope you don't take anything I am saying in <<offenseE!

<Laughs>

I am beginning to enjoy this myself (never intended this to be a debate in the first place), and I would enjoy it more if you talk without bothering about offending.

I think there are two parts to this; I will get done with the part one first:

<<but you have to admit, there is some truth in that. Many Muslims DO deny that there is anything "wrong" culture and not <<religion at all. But we are the ones that need to admit that and let others know

When he talked about denial of culture, he was talking about the Coran, not what Moslems practice or don't. What he was doing was asking Moslems, "Is this what the Coran says? No? Really?"

What he said, taken in context, is that there is a problem with the Coran, and Moslems are in a state of denial about it. It was Coran specific and not a loose remark.


<<About the Prophet being a warrior. Why are we denying this? Yes Muslims were being persecuted and were defending <<themseleves in the Prophet's time, but there was still fighting and killling going on during

Again, the context was not defense but extremism. He wasn't saying, "Oh! Mahomet was a warrior defending his battered people". He was talking about extremism, that Islam has been extremist from the start, and it's in this context that 'warrior' should be understood.


<<I can see where anybody would put two and two together. But just watch more of his material. You will see that what the <<man stands up for is the right for people to believe what they want, no matter how

I am glad for you that you like the man, but I think he is one stinking ba_stard. He supports the Vietnam war, feigns complete ignorance about the link between Laden and the Bush family (he got some education, alright), thinks that a group of beard wearing, Coran toting a_ssholes can actually bring the WTC down, and is a hardcore Israel supporter turning a total blind eye to the facts. Since you started off saying that you have always liked him, I didn't want to unmake your day, but you managed to get it out of me.

<<Ya he sure did, he was making me crazy just too watch. But believe me there are many people who, right after 9/11 (and <<still today) wouldn't have cut off his argumenet and would have just agreed with him.

A fat sob and a thin one is what I think of the two of them. <smiles>


End of part 1; part 2:

I agree with what you say about problems with Islam's history. It has been a history of violence and bloodshed; dangerous lunatics who, if they are allowed to have a free reign, would be just as damning for the world as any could be. Of course, some Moslems would like to pretend that the only violence that ever occurred in the history of Islam is the persecution of Mahomet and his little band, and, if you are a Chiite, you might want to add the persecution of Chiites. I could go on and on about how utterly ridiculous religion can be, but trash never engages my attention for long. Islam a religion of peace? Sooner believe the myths of Greece. Hey, that rhymed.

This post has been edited by Monarque: May 2 2010, 09:31 AM

[Nazia1987]

When he talked about denial of culture, he was talking about the Coran, not what Moslems practice or don't. What he was doing was asking Moslems, "Is this what the Coran says? No? Really?"

There IS violence and ayats in the Qu'ran that are offensive to modern day westerners when translated into English.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Any westerner who reads this will be appauled. The thing is, it either is that way or not! Does the Qu'ran say you can beat your wife, or is this a misunderstanding in the west due to faulty translation from the Arabic? Honestly I don't know because I don't speak Arabic and I have heard so many different sides to the story I don't know what to believe. But if it IS the case that the Qu'ran condones wife beating, better we accept it and move and say maybe "this isn't the way civilized people act, spouses should know in their hearts NOT to beat each other" than to deny it. If it's NOT the case and it's due to faulty translation, more people need to be addressing it in the mainstream and letting people know.


- "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

You and I BOTH know I can pick several more ayat from Qu'ran like this. Now, taken by itself this seems terrible... taken into the context of the time frame, what was going on, maybe it's a bit less terrible. But you have to understand, non-religious modern day people WILL find things like this to be troubling and disgusting. And people have every right to feel that way. So yes, when people say there is violence in the Qu'ran, instead of denying it we should say "yes, yes there is. But guess what, any sane person will not take something like this literally."

See, religion in the hands of nutbags is a very dangerous thing. Because surely people can justify whatever they want using religion.

Again, the context was not defense but extremism. He wasn't saying, "Oh! Mahomet was a warrior defending his battered people". He was talking about extremism, that Islam has been extremist from the start, and it's in this context that 'warrior' should be understood.

But if that's his opinion, I won't fault him for that. The ONLY reason I won't fault him for that is because he believes the same thing about all religions, not exclusively Muslims. Perhaps we as Muslims need to start addressing these controversial topics more often and coming in the mainstream and discussing them. I have seen Muslims in media over and over pointint out the "good things" in Islam (meaning to say, pointing out what Islam has given women, what Islam has given society, etc) but not once have I seen a Muslim in the media saying "hey there WAS violencec in the Prophet's time, here is why." Do you see what I'm saying? I feel like Muslims as a whole in the west tend to just ignore this and only focus on easy topics.

I am glad for you that you like the man, but I think he is one stinking ba_stard. He supports the Vietnam war, feigns complete ignorance about the link between Laden and the Bush family (he got some education, alright), thinks that a group of beard wearing, Coran toting a_ssholes can actually bring the WTC down, and is a hardcore Israel supporter turning a total blind eye to the facts. Since you started off saying that you have always liked him, I didn't want to unmake your day, but you managed to get it out of me.

Hey if he supports the Vietnam war, I will think he's a *******. But i would find that highly shocking. Please do let me know if that is the case. BUt yes he is way against 911 truthers... but so am I... I don't think the US gov't or Bush planned the WTC attacks.... it could most definetely and easily be done by religious nutjobs... But hey I can't say one way or another I don't know. But I won't think someones a ******* I guess because I disagree. Clearly you think 9/11 was an inside job, I don't think you are a ******* because of it.

But Bill Maher IS smug, and conceited and arrogant. I will give you that. I dunno why I like him so omuch, I just do.

I agree with what you say about problems with Islam's history. It has been a history of violence and bloodshed; dangerous lunatics who, if they are allowed to have a free reign, would be just as damning for the world as any could be. Of course, some Moslems would like to pretend that the only violence that ever occurred in the history of Islam is the persecution of Mahomet and his little band, and, if you are a Chiite, you might want to add the persecution of Chiites. I could go on and on about how utterly ridiculous religion can be, but trash never engages my attention for long. Islam a religion of peace? Sooner believe the myths of Greece. Hey, that rhymed.

See here I disagree. Islam IS a religion of peace. What idiots extrapolate out of it, that is their problem. The same way Christianity is a religion of peace, Judaism is a religion of peace, Buddhism is a religion of peace, Sikhism is a religion of peace, Hinduism is a religion of peace.... and so on. Every religion can be taken as a religion of peace if the person pursuing it is doing so with the intention of living their lives better and being a better person.

But like with many things in life, if you go in looking for a certain message you are bound to find it ANYWHERE. If you go into the Qu'ran looking for justification to kill someone who believes different from you, you will find it. If you go into the Qu'ran looking for the opposite, you will find it. It's a matter of how people twist and turn messages and mold them into what they want to see.

[Monarque]

<<There IS violence and ayats in the Qu'ran that are offensive to modern day westerners when translated

<<,You and I BOTH know I can pick several more ayat from Qu'ran like this. Now, taken by itself this seems terrible...

<<I feel like Muslims as a whole in the west tend to just ignore this and only focus on easy topics.

I am not a Moslem and it will be a cold day in hell before I become one.

I wanted to clarify that he was dissing Coran and Mahoment per se, and not simply Moslem practices, and if you are fine with or supportive of it then we need more tolerant Moslems like you. Most Moslems don't like Coran or Mahomet getting the bang.

<<Hey if he supports the Vietnam war, I will think he's a *******. But i would find that highly shocking.

He does. And his views on the Arab-Israel conflict shows him for the real Zionist sl_ut that he is.

<<Clearly you think 9/11 was an inside job, I don't think you are a ******* because of it.

I think anybody who in this age of information buys the government version needs to put on pants and stop functioning as a convenience a_sshole for the propaganda machine. It is impossible to remain ignorant, the deniers simply cannot live without the pain in the a_ss.

<<But Bill Maher IS smug, and conceited and arrogant. I will give you that. I dunno why I like him so omuch, I just do.

I think it's the balls that you talked about.

<<See here I disagree. Islam IS a religion of peace.

Yeah, and Gautama Buddha is the Lord of the Rings. <smiles>

This post has been edited by Monarque: May 2 2010, 11:09 AM

[Nazia1987]

I wanted to clarify that he was dissing Coran and Mahoment per se, and not simply Moslem practices, and if you are fine with or supportive of it then we need more tolerant Moslems like you. Most Moslems don't like Coran or Mahomet getting the bang.

It's not as though I take joy in watching somebody bash Islam or the Prophet, but I want to live in a world in which people have the RIGHT to do that. I will support somebody's right as a free individual to harbor whatever opinion they have and say anything they like about religion. The Qu'ran tells us there is no compulsion in religion, and that means people have the free will to believe whatever they like. That's why I love Bill Maher.... I may disagree with him on some issues, but that's one of the things that makes the world a great place. If we all think the same, believe the same, what a boring place with no intellectual stimulation it would be...

But don't think that all Muslims automatically hate someone who is against Islam... we respect people's right to believe what they like. People are individuals. This has a lot to do with culture too.

He does. And his views on the Arab-Israel conflict shows him for the real Zionist sl_ut that he is.

I won't even begin about Israel-Palestine... I was Jewish before I converted to Islam, and I was a huge zionist as well. I rooted for Israel back in 2006 when they were bombing the **** out of Lebanon. Once I visited Palestine myself I switched my views and became a Muslim within months of returning home to the US. But I have the benefit of having seen and have some glimpse into both sides of the story. It's a compilcated issue. Israelis are not inherently ######s and Palestinians are not inherently ######s as many on both sides would like to believe.... and this is not really a black and white issue.

I think anybody who in this age of information buys the government version needs to put on pants and stop functioning as a convenience a_sshole for the propaganda machine. It is impossible to remain ignorant, the deniers simply cannot live without the pain in the a_ss.

I never bought into a government version. I bought into the logical version. If you'll remember, the governemnt pretty much lied every step of the way. I dond't buy anything from the Bush administration... but logic tells me this was the act of a large group of religious finatics. I don't see the logic for why the US gov't would willfully make 9/11 happen. I've seen the conspiracy theories and I think that's all they are. They find some crazed engineer who says : "wait no! All the other structural engineers are wrong, here's what really happened!" and people believe it or what. But I'm not saying "OH it's IMPOSSIBLE that it was anything other than what I believe...."

I think you go too far with your statements here. You have an opinion and I have one. there's no sense in calling me ignorant or an ###### because I don't agree with you. It makes you just as bad as the religious people you hate. The REAL truth is that neither you nor I know exactly what happened that day.

I think it's the balls that you talked about.

What I see as arrogant in Maher is the way he revels in the fact that he is so much smarter than everyone around him. It's like someone who gets an advanced degree and thinks everyone else is scum. Yes I am disgusted by the amount of ignorants and the number of idiots in the US.... but I don't think I am better than them just because I have an education. It;s life. I can't say I'm better or worse than anyone else. I don't think he's humble that's all.

Yeah, and Gautama Buddha is the Lord of the Rings. <smiles>

Islam is the religion of peace if you want it to be. It's the religion of hatred and death if you want it to be, along with every other religion. Religions are ambiguous by nature. Reading the Qu'ran, or the Torah or the Bible or the Vedas or anything else... take it literally or take messages from it. One of my favorite books when I was a kid was Watership Down. When I was young I read it and thought "wow this is a great book about rabbits". When I analyzed it when I was older I said "wow this is a great book about freedom, and oppression, and political domination, and the struggle of those who see ills in the gov't." Religion is like that to me. Is it about rabbits, or is it about the freedom struggle? It's like anything in literature. It can be taken and interpreted however you'd like it.

[Monarque]

<<But don't think that all Muslims automatically hate someone who is against Islam

I don't; I know Moslems who are not only tolerant* but genuinely desirous of clearing others' "misconceptions" about Islam. But there's no point in my pretending that I come across scores of Moslems who like* people who diss Mahomet and Coran.

<<I won't even begin about Israel-Palestine

Okay, some other time.


<<I think you go too far with your statements here. You have an opinion and I have one. there's no sense in

I didn't mean you; I thought you said you can't say one way or the other.

And I don't buy your stance. We might not know what exactly happened, but there is enough to make some things clear. It's not just what "some crazed engineer" said, there is more to it. You are singing Maher's song of "crazy people who think...". But he is not being smart, simply burying his head in the sand.

<<What I see as arrogant in Maher is the way he revels in the fact that he is so much smarter than everyone around him.

<Laughs> Don't mind. <smiles>


<<It makes you just as bad as the religious people you hate

I don't hate any people, I simply find stupid people annoying.


<<Religions are ambiguous by nature.

<<It can be taken and interpreted however you'd like it.

Which would make them ridiculous.

This post has been edited by Monarque: May 2 2010, 12:40 PM

[Nazia1987]

I don't; I know Moslems who are not only tolerant* but genuinely desirous of clearing others' misconceptions about Islam. But there's no point in my pretending that I come across scores of Moslems who like* people who diss Mahomet and Coran.

That is true. Ya I was just making sure... all I know is you are not a Muslim I don't know if you've interacted with many Muslims and I was just trying to give some idea of us that's all.

Okay, some other time.

Most def. It's a conversation I'd love to have. Honestly I've ignored discussing the Israel-Palestine conflict in the last year or so because it's just such a crazy, horrible situation and it's very complicated.

I didn't mean you; I thought you said you can't say one way or the other.

And I don't buy your stance. We might not know what exactly happened, but there is enough to make some things clear. It's not just what "some crazed engineer" said, there is more to it. You are singing Maher's song of "crazy people who think...". But he is not being smart, simply burying his head in the sand.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. But my view of 9/11 has nothing to do with Bill Maher. I was quite shocked to find he was so against the 911 truthers. I dunno, I've always seen it as nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Most people I know who believe in the theory are those who will just believe anything they hear. Maybe I should look into it more, but one way or another, it doesn't really change my outlook on life. Governemnts are corrupt and go to benefit the greedy politicians in control, and religious finatics are ignorant drains on the world. Those two truths will remain regardless of what happened on 911.

To me it's all very possible that 911 could have happened at the hands of crazies, and it's very possible it would happen again. True story. I travel by bus many places, I just like the adventure and the long rides. I always carry one small backpack and a long knife with me just in case I get into trouble. I was flying back home from a long bus ride and had my backpack as my carry on bag with this 10'' switchblade in the front pocket. On top of that I was wearing hijab and traveling with a Muslim man! I freaked out when I got to the security because I remembered suddenly I had that knife with me from the bus ride. Guess what they missed it and I went right on through the knife with me on the plane the whole time in my carry on bag. I still don't understand how they didn't catch that, but thank God as they probably would have had the FBI there Who knows what would have happened to me and my friend! In my case it was an accident, but imagine what a bunch of very determined people with very real plans working for years on some plot could do. It's a very scary thought.

I don't hate any people, I simply find stupid people annoying.

I too find stupid people annoying. But there is a difference in saying "you are ignorant because you are arguing that 2+2=5" and saying "you are ignorant because you are arguing for your opnion which is different than mine." But honestly I think I just misunderstood what you are saying.

Which would make them ridiculous.

Perhaps religions are a bit ridiculous depending on how you look at it. I'm not saying they aren't. But they give some people a place to establish their morals. Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you, but it makes sense to some. I look to Islam because it gives me discipline and I can say I'm a better person after having it in my life. I"m not saying anyone who doesn't have it is automatically immoral or terrible. By all means there are plenty of people in this world who don't need religion to be a good person. But I do. I was not a great person before finding Islam. It gives me something to be grounded to. For me I consider religion a personal thing. I don't say its right for everyone and I don't judge anyone without it. I've said plenty on here my best friend is a Hindu, the rest of my group of closest friends are Hindus-turned-athiests. My mentor is a Hindu turned athiest, my mom is Jewish. I love all those people and don't judge them. They are all great people.

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: May 2 2010, 12:59 PM