Athiesm Is Worse Than Religion Options

[Killed Bill]

I was watching Richard Dawkins "God delusion" on channel 4 last night, and for a good amount of time, he was just rambling about how religion is a trend etc. Then it showed something interesting. He took a pilgrimage to where the Virgin Mary was (supposedly) seen. A place where Christians went to get cured from their problems. Dawkins then says that he can see how much this means to so many people and the kind of hope they recieve from it. Yet he still wants to take this away from them?

So my question is, are atheists really trying to do what is best? What good is truth when it leads to nothing? Why destroy the hope that so many people have? Why destroy the great ethics and morals so many people follow? Truth has absolutely no value without a God.

[dexter]

The reason would be the truth that people through the ages have killed and are still killing in the name of religion.

[Mureeda]

The truth of the matter Dex, is that people are going to kill. Weather there is a reason or not. People kill out of anger, hatred, jealousy and thievery just to name a few. And then you have people that kill just for the fun of it, no reason at all...

[Killed Bill]

The reason would be the truth that people through the ages have killed and are still killing in the name of religion.

People rarely kill for religion

People kill because they are greedy, or tyranny, or jealousy. Religion is only the banner that they use to hide these motives, and it works because people like you do not see it.

I believe there would be far more killing if religion had not existed, at least that way, people do not have any reason why they should not do any of that.

What I find disgraceful is how highly people hold truth when their so called truth only ruins lives, yet they claim they are doing it for humanity.

[Mureeda]

Bill, What is this "truth" that you speak of, that ruins peoples lives??? Cause it seems like you made contradictory statements.

[Nazia1987]

The reason would be the truth that people through the ages have killed and are still killing in the name of religion.

People rarely kill for religion

People kill because they are greedy, or tyranny, or jealousy. Religion is only the banner that they use to hide these motives, and it works because people like you do not see it.

I actually disagree here. I think it's easy for people to kill in the name of religion simply because they can two things 1) put their interpretation of their religion above their fundamental, innate morals (say I am crazy and God tells me to sacrifice my kid, perhaps if I am extremily religious I will agree with this simply because even though I love my child God has a plan and supreme authority and "knows best") and 2) believe there is an afterlife. Plenty of people over time have essentially sacrificed themselves in the name of religion simply because they believe they are going somewhere better. I don't think you'll ever find an athiest to do that.

What I find disgraceful is how highly people hold truth when their so called truth only ruins lives, yet they claim they are doing it for humanity.

I disagree again. If athiests are right and there is no God, then I believe their truth WOULD only help humanity. You're suggesting people stay blind and ignorant if it makes them happy. The problem is ignorance is the breeding ground for fear, intolerance, and always stands in the face of progress.

I think you are right in that yes, why destroy the hope of many people, but you must see the light on the other side as well. Like it or not, religion IS the cause of a huge amount of problems in this world, if not the most. The Holocaust, Darfur, Iraq I & II, India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, the crusades, the British empire, 9/11.... just a list of many things that, although may have happened for political reasons, all have very many underlying religious justifications or reasoning behind why they have happened or continue to happen. Forget about war. Simply look at intolerance over the ages. How much biggotry, intolerance, racism, and just plain hatred has existed in the world and continues to exist and people simply use religion as their justification for it? Sure you could say the same people would find another reason to be racist and intolerant without religion but I disagree not all people would because interpretation of religion DOES have the power to keep many, many people blind and ignorant.

I'm just trying to shed light on the opposite side of the debate here. Both sides have very valid points. Yes I agree with you, religion gives us a moral code. But I also agree that people have the ability to be moral without religion. On top of that comes a problem is what one person considers moral another person considers despicable.

hen it showed something interesting. He took a pilgrimage to where the Virgin Mary was (supposedly) seen. A place where Christians went to get cured from their problems

To me this is actually the saddest part of the whole topic. How many blind and ignorant, uber religious people fall for such hype like, the Virgin Mary was seen here, now I think my kids cancer will be cured, let me pray about it or Benny Hynn is telling me to send him my paycheck and now I will travel many miles and I won't need my wheelchair any more, or an astrologer has told me the stars are in an auspicious position so instead of going to a doctor for a simple infection I will let it take care of itself. But about the Virgin Mary sighting... How many miraculous cures will there be at that site? 0! How many people might die? countless! Imagine how many cures there might be however if the same group of people had the same enthusiasm for education as they did for religion. Cancer might have found its cure! But worse than that, you are talking about people having this hope and being happy. It's an empty hope, in this situation, people believing that same miracle will overcome science. It's an empty hope and many, many people die under these sort of delusions all the time. What you're seeing in that moment is the desperate hope of people, but what they aren't showing you is the desperation and grief those same peopel will feel at the death beds of their loved ones who weren't cured miraculously on their pilgrimage.

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: Aug 30 2010, 08:47 AM

[Killed Bill]

I actually disagree here. I think it's easy for people to kill in the name of religion simply because they can two things 1) put their interpretation of their religion above their fundamental, innate morals (say I am crazy and God tells me to sacrifice my kid, perhaps if I am extremily religious I will agree with this simply because even though I love my child God has a plan and supreme authority and "knows best") and 2) believe there is an afterlife. Plenty of people over time have essentially sacrificed themselves in the name of religion simply because they believe they are going somewhere better. I don't think you'll ever find an athiest to do that.

I do not believe in innate morals, they do not exist. And if they did, they are different for individuals, simply following ones morals does not make the world go around.

I cannot argue that people dont kill and die for religion, that is a part of religion, no matter how correctly you are following it. I am simply arguing that the amount of people who are killed in most major wars are not wars of religion, at those times religion is used as an excuse.

I disagree again. If athiests are right and there is no God, then I believe their truth WOULD only help humanity. You're suggesting people stay blind and ignorant if it makes them happy. The problem is ignorance is the breeding ground for fear, intolerance, and always stands in the face of progress.

True

I think you are right in that yes, why destroy the hope of many people, but you must see the light on the other side as well. Like it or not, religion IS the cause of a huge amount of problems in this world, if not the most. The Holocaust, Darfur, Iraq I & II, India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, the crusades, the British empire, 9/11.... just a list of many things that, although may have happened for political reasons, all have very many underlying religious justifications or reasoning behind why they have happened or continue to happen.

I could argue, in those situations, the root of the cause was not religious but something else. There is a difference in a set religion and a faith. Whether God exists or not, could that stop faith? Even atheists have faith. Some people are just crazy.

Forget about war. Simply look at intolerance over the ages. How much biggotry, intolerance, racism, and just plain hatred has existed in the world and continues to exist and people simply use religion as their justification for it? Sure you could say the same people would find another reason to be racist and intolerant without religion but I disagree not all people would because interpretation of religion DOES have the power to keep many, many people blind and ignorant.

This is true in certain circumstances, but I would not say, for example, the entire slave trade was a religious doing. It was not. That was not its purpose, religious excuses only developed later for it, and many people believe that it was for religious purposes.

I'm just trying to shed light on the opposite side of the debate here. Both sides have very valid points. Yes I agree with you, religion gives us a moral code. But I also agree that people have the ability to be moral without religion. On top of that comes a problem is what one person considers moral another person considers despicable.

I have made a thread on this before, I dont think it got many responds.

To me this is actually the saddest part of the whole topic. How many blind and ignorant, uber religious people fall for such hype like, the Virgin Mary was seen here, now I think my kids cancer will be cured, let me pray about it or Benny Hynn is telling me to send him my paycheck and now I will travel many miles and I won't need my wheelchair any more, or an astrologer has told me the stars are in an auspicious position so instead of going to a doctor for a simple infection I will let it take care of itself. But about the Virgin Mary sighting... How many miraculous cures will there be at that site? 0! How many people might die? countless! Imagine how many cures there might be however if the same group of people had the same enthusiasm for education as they did for religion. Cancer might have found its cure! But worse than that, you are talking about people having this hope and being happy. It's an empty hope, in this situation, people believing that same miracle will overcome science. It's an empty hope and many, many people die under these sort of delusions all the time. What you're seeing in that moment is the desperate hope of people, but what they aren't showing you is the desperation and grief those same peopel will feel at the death beds of their loved ones who weren't cured miraculously on their pilgrimage.

Since its creation (as a pilgrimage site) only 66 people have been cured, most people died. Keep in mind, that this was a last resort, and people still do that nowdays. Even religious Muslims. It is not the point of whether it helps or it doesnt, people just need that hope. Hope itself is a medicine. Look at someone who has no hope, look at his character, its disgusting. An example would be Shopenhaur. I dont think a person would be capable of spending an hour with him. Religion does not tell us to give up after scientists dont know how to cure something, or does your religion tell you that? Mine certainly doesnt, for as long as a person has hope, he has a chance.

[Mureeda]

"I could argue, in those situations, the root of the cause was not religious but something else. There is a difference in a set religion and a faith. Whether God exists or not, could that stop faith? Even atheists have faith. Some people are just crazy."

What do Atheists have faith in???


"Religion does not tell us to give up after scientists dont know how to cure something, or does your religion tell you that? Mine certainly doesnt,"

What religion do you follow??

[Killed Bill]

What do Atheists have faith in???

It could be anything.

Bertrand Russel says

"The work that merely aims at earning income shall not produce good results. For this purpose one should adopt a profession that implants in the individual a faith, a purpose and a goal".

I have never met one who has not had any faith, whatever it may have been.

What religion do you follow??

Islam. Islam is about making dua to God, preaching to Him and asking Him to rid us of our worries. When doctors tell you that the cancer is going to kill you, do you give up all hope? I sincerely hope that is not what Nazia preaches to people

[Nazia1987]

Islam. Islam is about making dua to God, preaching to Him and asking Him to rid us of our worries. When doctors tell you that the cancer is going to kill you, do you give up all hope? I sincerely hope that is not what Nazia preaches to people

I too am a Muslim but being a Muslim doesn't mean I have to be illogical. There's nothing wrong with hope, but when hope supersedes logic that's when I have a problem. If I had cancer I wouldn't just give up and loose hope because clearly cancer can be beaten (in certain situations). But if I had AIDS for example, I wouldn't hold out hope that my body would be free of HIV (something that is impossible). But ya if a doctor told me I was in the end stages of terminal brain cancer, no, why would I have hope? Hope for what? Why does that have to be so bleak? What's wrong with accepting fate? And no honestly I wouldn't sit around praying that it would go away. I never pray for myself, I only pray for others in all honesty. If God gives me cancer, then I have cancer. It's meant to be. No sense in trying to pray it away. I just don't think it works like that. And if the cancer were to be cured, no I wouldn't call it a miracle. Maybe I am different there. Things happen.

Let me ask you this: why would God instantiate the laws of science if he bent them around? I don't believe in such things. I don't believe God will do things that contradict science. I don't believe God rids somebody of HIV. I don't believe God cures somebody of cancer.

Would I force my way on others though? Will I call somebody else wrong if they DO try and pray away all ailments in their life? No it's their wish. Everyone has their own way that's all, and this is mine.

[Killed Bill]

Islam. Islam is about making dua to God, preaching to Him and asking Him to rid us of our worries. When doctors tell you that the cancer is going to kill you, do you give up all hope? I sincerely hope that is not what Nazia preaches to people

I too am a Muslim but being a Muslim doesn't mean I have to be illogical. There's nothing wrong with hope, but when hope supersedes logic that's when I have a problem. If I had cancer I wouldn't just give up and loose hope because clearly cancer can be beaten (in certain situations). But if I had AIDS for example, I wouldn't hold out hope that my body would be free of HIV (something that is impossible). But ya if a doctor told me I was in the end stages of terminal brain cancer, no, why would I have hope? Hope for what? Why does that have to be so bleak? What's wrong with accepting fate? And no honestly I wouldn't sit around praying that it would go away. I never pray for myself, I only pray for others in all honesty. If God gives me cancer, then I have cancer. It's meant to be. No sense in trying to pray it away. I just don't think it works like that. And if the cancer were to be cured, no I wouldn't call it a miracle. Maybe I am different there. Things happen.

Let me ask you this: why would God instantiate the laws of science if he bent them around? I don't believe in such things. I don't believe God will do things that contradict science. I don't believe God rids somebody of HIV. I don't believe God cures somebody of cancer.

Would I force my way on others though? Will I call somebody else wrong if they DO try and pray away all ailments in their life? No it's their wish. Everyone has their own way that's all, and this is mine.

The Lord that gives death to the living and bring the dead to living?

Allah does and can bend the laws of science, why? As a sign of His power, and at times, His mercy. If you are a Muslim then you must be aware that such instances are not uncommon, examples where Allah done something which defied scientific laws.

Dua itself is a form of Dhikr. Perhaps the only reason you were supposed to have that cancer was God guiding you closer to Him. Or maybe it was just for your death. I have seen many miraculous "recoveries", so I am more inclined towards this belief. And the situation would still apply if you were praying for a loved one (to overcome an illness).

[Nazia1987]

I guess my approach to religion is just a bit different, Killed Bill. I am not trying to say I am right and you are wrong at all as I respect yours and everybody else's position. it's just I view it differently. Sure Allah can bend the laws of science but I personally don't think he does. The things many consider as miraculous recoveries I don't consider as such. If somebody who should have died of cancer lives I don't consider it a miracle I consider it the workings of science: biochemistry and immunological systems in the body and modern medicine and probability and many other things.... I believe God has given such things and that they follow logic and that logic isn't disrupted. That's just my view. It's how I approach religion.

If you are a Muslim then you must be aware that such instances are not uncommon, examples where Allah done something which defied scientific laws.

Most instances I hear about of Allah swt defying scientific laws come as heresay from friends... oh my uncle told me that his sister said that she heard of a man who such and such... etc. I will take verifiable, reproducible empirical scientific evidence over this any day.

I maintain faith in Islam and in science at the same time. They go hand in hand for me. Part of maintaining my faith in science is my belief in logic and certain scientific laws that no I don't think are ever broken.

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: Sep 3 2010, 11:07 AM

[Killed Bill]

I guess my approach to religion is just a bit different, Killed Bill. I am not trying to say I am right and you are wrong at all as I respect yours and everybody else's position. it's just I view it differently. Sure Allah can bend the laws of science but I personally don't think he does. The things many consider as miraculous recoveries I don't consider as such. If somebody who should have died of cancer lives I don't consider it a miracle I consider it the workings of science: biochemistry and immunological systems in the body and modern medicine and probability and many other things.... I believe God has given such things and that they follow logic and that logic isn't disrupted. That's just my view. It's how I approach religion.

I do not believe in picking and choosing from religion. It has be to accepted as a whole. The Quran tells us of the things that Allah has done. The splitting of the sea, the splitting of the moon, giving life to the dead, curing diseases with a touch. If you have faith in a God that created it science, why cant you accept that He does not have to abide by it too? I am not trying to say accept whatever you see as a miracle of God, I am simply saying that not everything can, or will be explained by a scientific mind.

Most instances I hear about of Allah swt defying scientific laws come as heresay from friends... oh my uncle told me that his sister said that she heard of a man who such and such... etc. I will take verifiable, reproducible empirical scientific evidence over this any day.

I maintain faith in Islam and in science at the same time. They go hand in hand for me. Part of maintaining my faith in science is my belief in logic and certain scientific laws that no I don't think are ever broken.

Ayatullah Motahhari says that science is only a theory and an experiment. That is all. Science gives man the ability to reason and discuss, it doesnt create the man. Man also needs philosophy and faith.

Although scientific evidence is important, it is not the only thing. There are areas which science can never get into, or begin to explain, either due to a lack of a theory or the inability to experiment

[Nazia1987]

I do not believe in picking and choosing from religion. It has be to accepted as a whole. The Quran tells us of the things that Allah has done. The splitting of the sea, the splitting of the moon, giving life to the dead, curing diseases with a touch. If you have faith in a God that created it science, why cant you accept that He does not have to abide by it too? I am not trying to say accept whatever you see as a miracle of God, I am simply saying that not everything can, or will be explained by a scientific mind.

I don't believe in picking and choosing either. I guess I just view certain things as ... maybe there is a deeper meaning... why take it at face value. I always think of really good literature. I always loved Watership Down when I was a child because it was about rabbits and i took it at face value, but when I got older I realized the book was really about oppression and big government and revolution and etc. I guess that's how I take such stories that seem unscientific to me.

Ayatullah Motahhari says that science is only a theory and an experiment. That is all. Science gives man the ability to reason and discuss, it doesnt create the man. Man also needs philosophy and faith.

I agree, I think man needs philosophy and faith. But what do you mean by saying that science is only a theory? I think the word science is just too broad to lump it all into the category of theory. There is a plethora of scientific knowledge based on absolute fact.

Although scientific evidence is important, it is not the only thing. There are areas which science can never get into, or begin to explain, either due to a lack of a theory or the inability to experiment

What are some things which you think science can never explain?

[Killed Bill]

I don't believe in picking and choosing either. I guess I just view certain things as ... maybe there is a deeper meaning... why take it at face value. I always think of really good literature. I always loved Watership Down when I was a child because it was about rabbits and i took it at face value, but when I got older I realized the book was really about oppression and big government and revolution and etc. I guess that's how I take such stories that seem unscientific to me.

I am curious to see how you can explain these things, and how you interpret them, because I have yet to hear another way.

I agree, I think man needs philosophy and faith. But what do you mean by saying that science is only a theory? I think the word science is just too broad to lump it all into the category of theory. There is a plethora of scientific knowledge based on absolute fact.

Absolute fact? I had thought Descartes made it clear that there is very little absolute fact. Care to give me some examples?

What are some things which you think science can never explain?

Can an existing thing being become an non existing thing? Where does man go after death? Where does mans morals come from?

[Mureeda]

Nazia, either you need to be a scientologist or a Muslim. That is no middle ground. Allah is god and he does what he will...He says: Be! And it shall become! You can only trully benefit when you submit completely! If when you become muslim you have a clean slate, why would you bring baggage along with you?

[Killed Bill]

Nazia, either you need to be a scientologist or a Muslim. That is no middle ground. Allah is god and he does what he will...He says: Be! And it shall become! You can only trully benefit when you submit completely! If when you become muslim you have a clean slate, why would you bring baggage along with you?

That is an edgy belief. There is no distinction between a Muslim and a scientist. One is a profession, the other is a religion.

Unlike other religions, Islam recognises the two as separate entities

[Mureeda]

I didn't say scientist I said scientologist. That believe in scientology. There is a difference. you can be Muslim and a scientist, this is possible I believe. But when you began to believe in science that's when it becomes seperated. My point for saying that to nazia was because sometimes she sounds like she is giving credit to science over Allah. Everything happens with Allah leave. If you believe there are things in the world that have happened And he had no part in, as far as I know that is Scientology.

[mureed]

Most instances I hear about of Allah swt defying scientific laws come as heresay from friends... oh my uncle told me that his sister said that she heard of a man who such and such... etc. I will take verifiable, reproducible empirical scientific evidence over this any day.

What about the stories that are told in Holy Qur'an or the Holy Bible, or Hadith, are those hearsay also? can any of those be explained by science?

What are some things which you think science can never explain?

how does science explain the need to worship god? or god period for that matter
the not mixing of salt and fresh water in the ocean?
Where did man come from?
why is the dead sea the only body of salt water that is uninhabitable, or why is Hazrat Lut(AS)'s wife is still standing there as a pillar of salt?

In my opinion when science can't explain something it doesn't exist or it's a phenomenon, WHAT IS A PHENOMENON ANYWAY?!!!!

[Nazia1987]

What about the stories that are told in Holy Qur'an or the Holy Bible, or Hadith, are those hearsay also? can any of those be explained by science?

You apparently didn't read my post

how does science explain the need to worship god? or god period for that matter

I think this can easily be explained with psychology. I mean I'm not saying Islam is not the one true religion because i believe it is, but you do understand that for centuries people have looked to mythological entities in order to explain things which they had no explanation for at the time. Why do you think the Greeks had gods for thunder, and war, and water, etc.

the not mixing of salt and fresh water in the ocean?

I don't understand this question. The ocean is a salt water body, what do you mean fresh water and salt don't mix in the ocean? It doesn't make sense.

Where did man come from?

Science has explanations for that you just chose not to believe them.

why is the dead sea the only body of salt water that is uninhabitable, or why is Hazrat Lut(AS)'s wife is still standing there as a pillar of salt?

This is what scares me about uber religious people. First off, the dead sea is NOT the only body of water that is uninhabitable... it's not even the saltiest lake in the world, the saltiest lake in the word is in Djibouti and it too is uninhabitable. But what really bothers me is the last thing you said, that Lut's wife is still standing there as a pillar of salt? Do you truly believe this? I have been to the dead sea and I have waded through the dead sea and I have driven across the coast of the dead sea in Israel and believe me, Lut's wife is not standing there. This is what I mean about being religious and still being logical. This is nothing but a myth and it's sad to me that you can't see that. By believing in such myths I think it takes away from the real benefit Islam brings us.

i'll answer the questions from Killed Bill later because I am at work but it's just... I couldn't be a Muslim if it meant entirely ignoring science, just like I couldn't be a scientist if it meant entirely ignoring Islam. Allah wants us to learn and to discover the world why should we keep ourselves from discovering science?