Lineage Options

[Williams20]

According to many schools of thought in Islam such as 'hanafi ' it is said that the lineage of a Muslim is passed down paternally. If this is the case how can someone claim to be a descendant of the prophet. The prophet never had any male children that lived beyond infancy. Two of his sons died in infancy and another son was still born. The names of the sons were Qasim, Abdullah, and Ibraham. He only had daughters that lived into adulthood. His daughter Fatima had married Ali and had two sons. If lineage is passed down paternally and the prophet had no sons that lived beyond infancy how can people claim to be a descendant of the prophet. How can someone in the year 2010 say they are members of the prophets family and call themselves sayyid. The only way out of such a contradiction seems that lineage would have to be passed down through his daughter Fatima. Please clarify if this is not the correct understanding. In your answer please give me evidence from Quran, and Sunnah. If you have I would also like evidence from books written by Sahaba, Tabiun, or Tbi al-Tbin. Thank you for your assistance.

[Nazia1987]

I'm not trying to sidestep your question... but this is just another question to add and something I've always been curious about... why do people care so much about who is a decendent of the prophet? I just don't get it, why does it make them special? It is not as though having somebodys blood makes a person better than another or more pious than another...

that's all I've just never understood why people care so much about (any) bloodline

[Killed Bill]

I'm not trying to sidestep your question... but this is just another question to add and something I've always been curious about... why do people care so much about who is a decendent of the prophet? I just don't get it, why does it make them special? It is not as though having somebodys blood makes a person better than another or more pious than another...

that's all I've just never understood why people care so much about (any) bloodline

It doesnt make you better, but it makes you different. I have heard, not sure how true it is, that a person who is a descendant earns double the reward of a deed compared to someone who isnt, but at the same time, gets double the punishment of a sin.

In our society being from that descendant gives you a lot of respect as it shows you are from a pure lineage.

[Williams20]

I'm not trying to sidestep your question... but this is just another question to add and something I've always been curious about... why do people care so much about who is a decendent of the prophet? I just don't get it, why does it make them special? It is not as though having somebodys blood makes a person better than another or more pious than another...

that's all I've just never understood why people care so much about (any) bloodline

It doesnt make you better, but it makes you different. I have heard, not sure how true it is, that a person who is a descendant earns double the reward of a deed compared to someone who isnt, but at the same time, gets double the punishment of a sin.

In our society being from that descendant gives you a lot of respect as it shows you are from a pure lineage.

From experience I have learned that the use of the word 'different' is what is normally used to support a caste system. With the exception of the Hindu Bramin From my experience people who support caste systems never say they are better than someone else. They are more subtle and use the word 'different.' The out come from saying someone is 'different' is that it always give one person a higher social status than someone else. This ultimately leads these so called 'different' people to have more wealth than others, more power in society than other, and even get away with crimes against people that are not like them. So if you are saying that people from the prophet's descendant gets a lot of respect how about everyone else. Do they not get that same respect. Do the people of the prophets family have the right to treat eveyone like dirt.

[Killed Bill]

From experience I have learned that the use of the word 'different' is what is normally used to support a caste system. With the exception of the Hindu Bramin From my experience people who support caste systems never say they are better than someone else. They are more subtle and use the word 'different.' The out come from saying someone is 'different' is that it always give one person a higher social status than someone else. This ultimately leads these so called 'different' people to have more wealth than others, more power in society than other, and even get away with crimes against people that are not like them. So if you are saying that people from the prophet's descendant gets a lot of respect how about everyone else. Do they not get that same respect. Do the people of the prophets family have the right to treat eveyone like dirt.

I dont agree.

Difference in Islam does and never will lead to different social status'. When I say they are different I mean they are treated differently, not necessarily better or worse. Just as men and women are equal, our roles are very different. I wouldn't apply the same amount of difference between a Sayed and a non sayed, but there exists one. The difference in fact is not that important or great.

[Williams20]

I guess we are gonna have to agree to disagree. Every time I have met Muslims and been to Muslims countries I have seen the opposite. It seems that even the scholars of Islam give higher social status to people with higher lineage. Such as someone who is a member of the prophet's family number one, Quraish tribe number two, all other Arabs number 3, non Arab Muslims who have Islam in their family for a long time number 4, and new converts are on the bottom. So I would say it seems their is a caste system in Islam.

[Killed Bill]

I guess we are gonna have to agree to disagree. Every time I have met Muslims and been to Muslims countries I have seen the opposite. It seems that even the scholars of Islam give higher social status to people with higher lineage. Such as someone who is a member of the prophet's family number one, Quraish tribe number two, all other Arabs number 3, non Arab Muslims who have Islam in their family for a long time number 4, and new converts are on the bottom. So I would say it seems their is a caste system in Islam.

I can agree with you to some extent. I do notice that people treat those who are related differently, as though they have a higher status. However this isnt such a great difference to us to call it a "caste system". Not at all

[Williams20]

I guess we are gonna have to agree to disagree. Every time I have met Muslims and been to Muslims countries I have seen the opposite. It seems that even the scholars of Islam give higher social status to people with higher lineage. Such as someone who is a member of the prophet's family number one, Quraish tribe number two, all other Arabs number 3, non Arab Muslims who have Islam in their family for a long time number 4, and new converts are on the bottom. So I would say it seems their is a caste system in Islam.

I can agree with you to some extent. I do notice that people treat those who are related differently, as though they have a higher status. However this isnt such a great difference to us to call it a "caste system". Not at all

I’m still going to disagree with you on this matter. Treating people differently based only on someone’s lineage is a caste system. That different treatment only because someone is part of this or that lineage is the essence of a caste system. This is primarily because people who are being treated differently only because of their lineage have not earned that respect. When people do not earn respect and feel that they automatically deserve it because of their lineage that leads to racism, tribalism, very high ego, disrespect of others not like them, and etc. That is how caste societies behave. Believe me I have seen that in many Muslim countries.

[Killed Bill]

It is not great enough for it to be a caste system.

No sayed should ever expect any different kind of treatment, nor can they request it from anyone else.

There are those who show more respect to sayeds, but that is only their doing. Some people love the children of those who were better than us

To put it simply, there is no expectation from either sides, and if there is, there shouldnt be.

I would not call that a caste system, thats too much of a strong statement, and you really cannot believe in that

[Williams20]

It is not great enough for it to be a caste system.

No sayed should ever expect any different kind of treatment, nor can they request it from anyone else.

There are those who show more respect to sayeds, but that is only their doing. Some people love the children of those who were better than us

To put it simply, there is no expectation from either sides, and if there is, there shouldnt be.

I would not call that a caste system, thats too much of a strong statement, and you really cannot believe in that

I guess this is just one of those points we are not going to agree upon. Those people who show more respect to sayed are doing it just because of the persons lineage. Again giving that higher respect only because of their lineage is the essence of caste system. In many muslim countries I have seen many of these Sayed getting gifts, easier punishments, treated better, easier oppertunity for marriage, and etc.

[Killed Bill]

It is not great enough for it to be a caste system.

No sayed should ever expect any different kind of treatment, nor can they request it from anyone else.

There are those who show more respect to sayeds, but that is only their doing. Some people love the children of those who were better than us

To put it simply, there is no expectation from either sides, and if there is, there shouldnt be.

I would not call that a caste system, thats too much of a strong statement, and you really cannot believe in that

I guess this is just one of those points we are not going to agree upon. Those people who show more respect to sayed are doing it just because of the persons lineage. Again giving that higher respect only because of their lineage is the essence of caste system. In many muslim countries I have seen many of these Sayed getting gifts, easier punishments, treated better, easier oppertunity for marriage, and etc.

What countries are these and how have you seen these things?

I guess I wouldnt know, I have always been treated a bit different because of who my dad is. I wouldnt know if its because of anything else. But still, I really wouldnt call this a caste system especially since its not someone Islam says but maybe something some Muslims do. Perhaps on a spiritual level or when we are in the Mosque a sayed is treated slightly different, but outside of that he isnt. Not that he should be treated different in either

[Williams20]

What countries are these and how have you seen these things?

I guess I wouldnt know, I have always been treated a bit different because of who my dad is. I wouldnt know if its because of anything else. But still, I really wouldnt call this a caste system especially since its not someone Islam says but maybe something some Muslims do. Perhaps on a spiritual level or when we are in the Mosque a sayed is treated slightly different, but outside of that he isnt. Not that he should be treated different in either
[/quote]


The countries would be Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Egypt. This different treatment that exits in many of these Muslim countries is very much a caste system. It might not be to the same degree as caste practiced in other religions but it still is a caste system. Treating people different based only on lineage is definitely a caste system.

[Killed Bill]

For arguments sake, let us assume that sayeds do get a lot of different treatment.

Is this something you are putting blame on Muslims or Islam?

The religion itself says that none of us are different, we do not believe in racial division or things like that

Truly this religion has very few followers

[Williams20]

For arguments sake, let us assume that sayeds do get a lot of different treatment.

Is this something you are putting blame on Muslims or Islam?

The religion itself says that none of us are different, we do not believe in racial division or things like that

Truly this religion has very few followers

Here is information that very much seems like caste in Islam I found from different Islamic scholars as well as hadiths.







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From AskImam website here is a portion of a Fatwa given by Mufti Ebrahim Desai. You can get the full fatwa at



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http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=08d876a3d17b46c28616b4dceb0448aa





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Equality in Lineage

1. Those who come from the lineage of the Quraish are considered equal to one another. The Shaykh, Sayyid, Ansaari, and Alawi are all equal to each other. In other words, although the status of a Sayyid is more than the other, if the daughter of a Sayyid married a Shaykh boy; it will not be said that she did not marry someone who is of her social standing. Instead, it will be regarded as if she has married one of her social standing.

2. The rest of the Arabs are considered equal to one another even if they may be from different tribes. A non-Quraishi, however, is not equal to a Quraishi in lineage.

3. Those that are not from the lineage of one of the tribes of the Arab are called ‘Ajm (non-Arabs). The non-Arabs are not equal to the Arabs in lineage. The non-Arabs, amongst themselves, are equal even if they come from different cultures and countries (as lineage is not considered in non-Arabs). Most of the people these days are considered non-Arabs (even if they speak the Arabic language), except for those who are from the lineage of one of the four Khulafa Rashideen, the Ansaar etc.

( قوله وهذا في العرب ) أي اعتبار النسب إنما يكون في العرب ( رد المحتار: ج 4 ص 198 دار المعرفة )

( قوله وأما في العجم ) المراد بهم من لم ينتسب إلى إحدى قبائل العرب ، ويسمون الموالي والعتقاء كما مر وعامة أهل الأمصار والقرى في زماننا منهم ، سواء تكلموا بالعربية أو غيرها إلا من كان له منهم نسب معروف كالمنتسبين إلى أحد الخلفاء الأربعة أو إلى الأنصار ونحوهم ( رد المحتار: ج 4 ص 198 دار المعرفة )

3. In matters of lineage, the lineage of the father is considered and not the mother. If the father is a Sayyid, the son is also a Sayyid; and if the father is a Shaykh, the son is also a Shaykh – irrespective of what the mother may be. If a Sayyid married a woman who is not a Sayyid, their son will be regarded as a Sayyid. This son will be equal in status to all other Sayyids. Although the son whose father and mother are both from a noble family is respected more, according to the Shariah they will all be regarded as relatives or of the same social standing.

Equality in being a Muslim

1. Equality in being a Musim in only considered among the non-Arab nations. There is no consideration of this among the Arabs such as the Shaykhs, Alawis, Ansaaris etc. A man who accepts Islam and his father was a kaafir cannot be on par or equal to a woman who is a Muslim and her father was also a Muslim. The man who is a Muslim, his father is also a Muslim, but his grandfather was a kaafir, cannot be equal to a woman whose grandfather was also a Muslim.

2. A man whose father and grandfather were Muslims, but his great grandfather was a kaafir will be regarded as equal to a woman whose several forefathers were Muslims. In short, this equality is only considered till the grandfather. Equality beyond the grandfather, such the great grandfather and beyond him is not considered.



Background on Mufti Ebrahim Desai:



After completing the memorization (hifz) of the Qur'an, Desai engaged in study of the Islamic sciences at the hundred year old seminary of Deobandi persuasion, in Dabhel, India. Here, he studied the Darse Nizami curriculum for nine years, which included the study of Qur'anic Tafsir, Usul al-Tafsir, Hadith, Usul al-Hadith, Usul al-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic jurisprudence)according to the Hanafi school of Islamic law and Arabic language.

After completing his study in Darse Nizami, Desai, pursued a takhassus (specialization) course in Ifta under Ahmad Khanpuri of Dabhel for two years. This is where he learned the principles of issuing fatwa. After the completing of this course, he completed another year of studies in Ifta under the late Mufti of India, Mahmud al-Hasan Gangohi, the author of the multivolume Fatawa Mahmudiyya.^[3]



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Also Read Arabs are preferred over other nations on sunni path at



http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=9427&CATE=1



It is Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed
Translated by Ustadha Shazia Ahmad



Biograpy of Shaykh Amjad Rasheed:

Shaykh Amjad Rasheed is a young Palestinian scholar who has studied Sacred Law (with an emphasis on Shafi'i fiqh) for several years with top scholars in Syria, Jordan, and Hadramawt. He has received numerous ijazas to impart his knowledge to others from the scholars that he sat with. Recently, he completed his PhD in Islamic Law for a critical edition and annotation of Imam Ghazali's Khulasat al-Mukhtasar. A student of Shaykh Nuh Keller, he currently lives in Amman and gives public lessons in Shafi'i fiqh and other subjects in Shaykh Nuh's zawiya.



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Allah's prophet (SallAllah-u-Alaihi-wa-Sallam) said: This matter (rule) will remain with the Quraish even if only two from them existed.
[Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 89, Number 254]


Here it seems to be saying that power is to be held by the Quraish tribe. They are the rulers of the Muslim people. It seems ruler ship is based only on lineage.

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Ibn Taimiya has stated



"the people of ahl-as-sunnah believe that the arabic race is better than the non-arab races."



This is in the book



'Al-Maqasid Ash-Shariah'



So ultimately the theme that is resonating from all these scholars and statements is that there is a type of caste system in Islam. That people of certain lineage are preferred of over others. That people who are not Arab are not equal Arabs. So a non arab is not equal to an arab. A non Quraish arab is not equal to a Quraish arab.



An argument to what I have said by many muslims would be a quote from the last sermon of the prophet. Which says:



All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

My argument to this Sermon is that didn't all the scholars I mentioned have access to the last sermon of the prophet. So doesn't this mean that these scholars understood the last sermon differently than how you or I have understood it?

If you feel I have mistranslated or misquoted please feel free to show me where. If you also have evidence that goes against what I have shown pleas free to provide that evidence.