Things I Have A Hard Time Dealing With In Islam... Please Help! Options

[Nazia1987]

Since I converted and learned more there are two issues which have been so trublesome for me as a Muslim.

1) that slavery is allowed and that for men slave girls are part of who their right hand possess. This essentially means a man could have a girl as a sex slave

33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."

2) that Aisha was so young when she married the Prophet. Most sources I have heard say that she was 6 at marriage and 9 when the marriage was consumated

1 O Prophet, when you (and the believers) divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

. . . [T]hen he [Muhammad] wrote the marriage (wedding) contract with Aishah when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed [sic, consummated] that marriage when she was nine years old. (Bukhari; see the parallel hadith here, here, and also look at no. 3311)

I hope some body will clear up some of this for me. These are two things I've just never been able to accept, but above all slavery. I find nothing more injust in the world than slavery

[Simba]

Actually anyone could have anyone as a slave.

First, slavery back then was not racial slavery Americans know of. You weren't just born into it or a slave just because you were a different race. You were usually captured or something similar during war. That being said, slavery was also an economically important thing as economics would not work without slavery. Even nowadays, migrant workers in America are actually paid and worth less than Slaves were back in the 1800s.

All that being said, Islam has some interesting provisions on slaves. For one, they are worth more than idolators.

002.221
YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.

It also states to be kind to your slaves:

004.036
YUSUFALI: Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;-

Also in multiple places in the Quran, one of the way for retribution for sin is to free a slave:

004.092
YUSUFALI: Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

From this many scholars postulate that Islam provided a system to remove slavery gradually over time.

Also, Muhammad married a slave. Showing that they are not lesser people.

For the record, Christianity and Judaism also had provisions about slavery.
Old Testament:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

[Simba]

About Ayesha, there is tons of arguments about her, but a more interesting one I've heard was this:

The Sunni Hadith (Bukhari, Muslim) are historical sources of Muhammad's life. The most prominent author of the second most important book in Sunni Islam? Ayesha. So many of the hadith are narrated by her. From this scholars postulate that Ayesha's young age was a result of keeping the intimate ways of Muhammads life pure as Ayesha would know them better than anyone else.

Also, from an anthropological/scientific perspective, once you reach puberty you are an adult. The concept of people becoming adult at 18 is a Western concept that has resulted in massive teen pregnancies throughout the West. And scientifically teen pregnancy isn't necessarily bad. It's the fact that most teens in western society have the mentally of kids thats bad. In other societies, by the time you hit puberty you maybe considered an adult and have kids and be able to raise them correctly.

Also for the record, Ali accepted Islam around age 10 and was defending Muhammad soon after. By today's standards that would also be considered child soldier.

The point I'm trying to make is that provisions of age are very much of a subjective concept. The question that should be asked is "Was Ayesha forced into marriage". And that would be a unequivocal "no" as Ayesha adored Muhammad for the rest of her life and defended his honor till death.

[Killed Bill]

I do not have the sources with me right now, but it was a contradiction of sources for those who claim Aisha was married at 9. The more logical answer is that she was married at 12/14.

Simba gave a good enough response

[truth-finder]

Recently I heard an interesting conversation between a Muslim and an atheist. First, the Muslim fellow started the conversation with the sex scandals of Catholic priests. As most of us know, recently several Catholic priests were caught and sentenced for having sexually abused children. The atheist fellow responded with the story of the child sex abuse of Muhammad with a 9 year old girl. Aisha was one of many wives of Muhammad and Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage (which means starting a sexual intercourse) with her when she was only 9. He was then, 54 years old. Then the Muslim fellow replied with the following question, How is what those priests did different from consummating a marriage with a 9-year old? Here was my answer to his question.

We do not cover up the disgraceful things those immoral priests have done to children. Christians including me are grieved over the crimes and leave the matter to the law enforcement authority for appropriate sentence. We condemn those shameful things. But the fundamental difference between these immoral priests and your prophet consummating a marriage with a 9-year old is that the formers are strongly condemned, while the latter is the role model Muslims must imitate in every detail. Thus this kind of immoral behavior is actually encouraged instead of being discouraged and practiced, which we see throughout the Muslim communities. No human being is perfect and everybody is sinful. Your prophet is no exception. If you claim your prophet is sinless, basically you claim that he is divine or God.

[Nazia1987]

hey SImba and Killed Bill, thanks for the responses. But this one thing still troubles me a bit:


1 O Prophet, when you (and the believers) divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

i understand that at the age of puberty, it was considered adulthood in many cultures back in the day. but right here it shows that the girl doesn't have to have reached puberty yet to be married. this is something that definetely still bothers me.

thanks for the responses btw. i know this is controversial subject and not a lot of people like to talk about, but its something that has bothered me and it makes me feel much better to get some feedback

[Simba]

We do not cover up the disgraceful things those immoral priests have done to children. Christians including me are grieved over the crimes and leave the matter to the law enforcement authority for appropriate sentence. We condemn those shameful things. But the fundamental difference between these immoral priests and your prophet consummating a marriage with a 9-year old is that the formers are strongly condemned, while the latter is the role model Muslims must imitate in every detail.

The difference is one is consensual and the other is forced. Again you have to take an anthropological point of view to understand this.

hey SImba and Killed Bill, thanks for the responses. But this one thing still troubles me a bit:


1 O Prophet, when you (and the believers) divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

i understand that at the age of puberty, it was considered adulthood in many cultures back in the day. but right here it shows that the girl doesn't have to have reached puberty yet to be married. this is something that definetely still bothers me.

thanks for the responses btw. i know this is controversial subject and not a lot of people like to talk about, but its something that has bothered me and it makes me feel much better to get some feedback

Maududi isn't the Qur'an. He is known as Tafsir, or commentary on the Quran. His teachings are banned in multiple countries, including Muslim, as being overly extremist. He is the founder of Jamaat, the largest terrorist group in South Asia. Using him as a source of Islam is like using bin Laden.

Here is the actual line:

065.001
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods: And fear Allah your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by Allah: and any who transgresses the limits of Allah, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation.

You should be careful when researching hate sites of any kind. Sites that hate on Christianity take overly exaggerated claims and make Christians sound demonic. The same applies to Muslim hate sites.

This post has been edited by Simba: Oct 2 2010, 01:18 AM

[Killed Bill]

I am not too sure, but I think the verse you provided is an abrogated verse, I havent looked into it some I am not sure but

thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation.

Suggests that the law was changed

[Nazia1987]

hey thanks Simba, there was this site where a Christian guy had said: this is why I dont convert to Islam and listed this verse and it had seriously bothered me im glad to know thats not the actual context!

[Kalaam]

Maududi isn't the Qur'an. He is known as Tafsir, or commentary on the Quran. His teachings are banned in multiple countries, including Muslim, as being overly extremist. He is the founder of Jamaat, the largest terrorist group in South Asia. Using him as a source of Islam is like using bin Laden.

Though I don't consider Maududi a good scholar, but what you say is extremely wrong. His books are very popular in the secular people of Pakistan, though religious scholars criticize him very much, anyhow his organization is not at all a terrorist one by any means. In which country are his books banned? Where are you getting your info from?

Anyhow, what she posted was from Quran , not from tafseer of Maududi or someone else.

Shakir:
[065:001] O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for~ their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency; and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion.

[065:002] So when they have reached their prescribed time, then retain them with kindness or separate them with kindness, and call to witness two men of justice from among you, and give upright testimony for Allah. With that is admonished he who believes in Allah and the latter day; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah, He will make for him an outlet,

[065:003] And give him sustenance from whence he thinks not; and whoever trusts in Allah, He is sufficient for him; surely Allah attains His purpose; Allah indeed has appointed a measure for everything.

[065:004] And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

[065:005] That is the command of Allah which He has revealed to you, and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah, He will remove from him his evil and give him a big reward.

See this question for details

Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses?
I have not yet reached the age of puberty. Is it correct that a girl could get married before her menses start, or is that just a traditional myth?.

Answer:
Firstly:

Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee’ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.

1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

.
.
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Secondly:

The fact that it is permissible to marry a minor girl does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that (that is she reaches the legal age or puberty, legal age being 9 or more). Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her).

And Allaah knows best.

[Killed Bill]

I promise you, Nazia, you wont find a better tafsir than Al Mizan

Use that to interpret this verse

[Kalaam]

But it raises a question?
Is the verse 33:49 abrogated?

and if that is not abrogated,than there is no minimum age for marriage in Islam.

I hope someone explain it to me

[Nazia1987]

ok so i'm completely confused... child marriage is or is not allowed in Islam? If so how can anybody truly think of practicing it in this day and age??

Secondly:

The fact that it is permissible to marry a minor girl does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that (that is she reaches the legal age or puberty, legal age being 9 or more). Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her).

Who says? i"m just curious... is this from hadith? Scholar, what? I ask because there seems to be much debate about when the Prophet consummated the marriage with Aiysha. And you are saying the legal age of puberty is 9??? I sure don't know anybody who hit puberty at the age of 9...

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: Oct 3 2010, 12:59 PM

[truth-finder]

As I read the posts in the thread, a series of unsuccessful justification has been attempted for the sexual intercourse with a girl of 9 years old. In a failed attempt for another justification Simba and Kalaam contradicted themselves about Maududi. If only one thing is admitted, a series of unsuccessful justification would not be necessary in the first place. The sexual intercourse of your prophet with a 9 year old girl is immoral and wrong! I am not saying your prophet was a pedophile just as some critics argue. What I am saying is that because he was a human being, he made a mistake. All human beings are imperfect and sinful. There is no exception. Even Abrahams and Moses made mistakes and were sinful. If you believe your prophet is perfect and without sin, you are insisting that he is divine or God. Is it part of your religion that your prophet was perfect and sinless, thus implying he is God?

[Nazia1987]

actually i (partially) agree with truth finder here in that the Prophet was a person. I've never understood why people can't admit that he could make mistakes just like every other person. yes he was pious and a good person, more than most, but still human. Allah never says he was perfect, yet sometimes i feel like Muslims act as though he was perfect.

For example, there is a lot of controvery over these ayat that its said the Prophet said there were ayat revealed from Allah that appealed to pagans and alluded to one of their gods, later he removed this and explained it was because he wanted to appeal to more people. did this really happen or not?

[Kalaam]

As I read the posts in the thread, a series of unsuccessful justification has been attempted for the sexual intercourse with a girl of 9 years old. In a failed attempt for another justification Simba and Kalaam contradicted themselves about Maududi. If only one thing is admitted, a series of unsuccessful justification would not be necessary in the first place. The sexual intercourse of your prophet with a 9 year old girl is immoral and wrong! I am not saying your prophet was a pedophile just as some critics argue. What I am saying is that because he was a human being, he made a mistake. All human beings are imperfect and sinful. There is no exception. Even Abrahams and Moses made mistakes and were sinful. If you believe your prophet is perfect and without sin, you are insisting that he is divine or God. Is it part of your religion that your prophet was perfect and sinless, thus implying he is God?

Actually I do not agree with you, for the obvious reason, that you are judging the values and morals of another society , of another age, with your own the values and morals of your society, and that also of another age.

Sex out of marriage is considered a heineous cirme in our society, so a person who does that in the eyes of our society is a morally bankrupt person. This makes the most part of western world morally bankrupt in the eyes of majority of the eastern people, whether Muslim or non Muslim. For this obvious reason, we should look at the standards of each society, sometimes they can be wrong in any case, e.g the old custom of hindus burning the wife on the death of her husband, but as far as this case is concerned, the marriage of a young girl, this of course was a norm in the whole world till the very recent past and this is not something that any person who has any familiarity with the history would be unaware of. I would not even go back on providing all the references I once gave to other critics, for it is very common fact , but if you deny that it was a norm amongst the humans, than kindly tell us so we see the facts once again.

The Arab critics of Muhammad (peace be upon him) who criticized him on various points, never ever raised this issue? Why? Even as far as I realize, this issue has never been raised till the very recent past. Just because the world now considers sex out of marriage not a bad thing and marriage with a young girl a bad thing, this doesn't at all show that humanity had the same thinking sometimes ago.

Tomorrow marriage of a 48 year person with a 24 year lady will be considered wrong, so does that mean that all such marriages of today's world are morally wrong? Logic doesn't support it.

The girl whom he married, Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was the greatest female religious scholar in the history. Actually 1/3rd of the Islamic Law is narrated by her. Her magnificence as a female religious scholar is unparallelled in the human history. She was married at a young age, that was for a reason. She was the teacher of the grand scholars of religion. She never at once complained about the person about whom people criticize blindly , and in my humble opinion, mature men starts acting like little kids while discussing over this issue, without knowing their history.

Her student , Urwah praised her in the following words
'' I haven’t seen a more knowledgeable person in jurisprudence, or medicine, or poetry than Aisha.''

She was not the victim of bible which orders women to shut up , rather she was the the magnificent example of Islam , whose magnificence can't be described in a single sentence, simple as that.

This post has been edited by Kalaam: Oct 4 2010, 04:17 PM

[Kalaam]

Allah never says he was perfect, yet sometimes i feel like Muslims act as though he was perfect.

For example, there is a lot of controvery over these ayat that its said the Prophet said there were ayat revealed from Allah that appealed to pagans and alluded to one of their gods, later he removed this and explained it was because he wanted to appeal to more people. did this really happen or not?

If there is any human who can be called perfect , Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the one indeed.

As far as your second statement, nothing happened like that.

[Nazia1987]

If there is any human who can be called perfect , Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the one indeed.

More so than other prophets? See herein lies my problem.

As far as your second statement, nothing happened like that.

Who made this up? I am not disputing you, I'm just curious as I first heard about it in a college course about Islam because it was printed in the text book. The book said it was an "alleged" event, since then I have read about this quite a bit. Anyway, where did this come from?

And back to your original argument, the forum seems to be split on this... so child marriage is or is not allowd in Islam? That verse is tampered with, translated, etc or that's what it means?

This post has been edited by Nazia1987: Oct 4 2010, 05:44 PM

[truth-finder]

Hi Kalaam

Thanks for your comment. Sex out of marriage was wrong in the past and is still wrong. Sex out of marriage is wrong in the west and east. Sexual intercourse with a 9 year old young girl was wrong in the past and is still wrong both in the west and east. Sex out marriage and sex with a 9 year old young girl is wrong for Christians or non-Christians. This is universal. Great prophets such as Abraham, Moses and Isaiah had never done such an immoral thing as sexual intercourse with a 9 year old young girl. Do you remember Jesus had done such a thing in his earthly life?

Shamefully some Christians have committed sex with young children in the past. We condemn those immoral acts. But the fundamental difference between these immoral people and your prophet consummating a marriage with a 9-year old is that the formers are strongly condemned, while the latter is the role model Muslims must imitate in every detail. Thus this kind of immoral behavior is actually encouraged instead of being discouraged and practiced, which we see throughout the Muslim communities. No human being is perfect and everybody is sinful. Your prophet is no exception. If you claim your prophet is sinless, basically you are claiming that he is divine or God.

[Kalaam]

Who made this up? I am not disputing you, I'm just curious as I first heard about it in a college course about Islam because it was printed in the text book. The book said it was an "alleged" event, since then I have read about this quite a bit. Anyway, where did this come from?

And back to your original argument, the forum seems to be split on this... so child marriage is or is not allowd in Islam? That verse is tampered with, translated, etc or that's what it means?

I am not concerned with who made this up. If the book tells you any than tell us.

I will first ask about it from good scholars before saying something. The Quran is not tampered with, if anyone has this belief,than he doesn't remain a Muslim anymore.

Thanks for your comment. Sex out of marriage was wrong in the past and is still wrong. Sex out of marriage is wrong in the west and east. Sexual intercourse with a 9 year old young girl was wrong in the past and is still wrong both in the west and east. Sex out marriage and sex with a 9 year old young girl is wrong for Christians or non-Christians. This is universal. Great prophets such as Abraham, Moses and Isaiah had never done such an immoral thing as sexual intercourse with a 9 year old young girl. Do you remember Jesus had done such a thing in his earthly life?

So sex with a girlfriend is not considered bad in the West?
If it was wrong in the past, as I said, the critics of Muhammad (peace be upon him) would be the first to point this out. They never raised this point, for the obvious reason that it was not considered bad in the past. You are assuming too much. What is your proof that it was considered bad in the past?
Great Prophet e.g Abraham had a slave which is considered an immoral thing nowadays in the west. Your logic is totally flawed. Just because Abraham , Moses , Isaiah or Jesus didn't do it, you tell me that is why it is wrong?
Great Prophets had lots of wives according to bible, which is considered bad nowadays in the West. And I can tell you for surely, if you had the statistics of the age of their wives, than you would have found that a marriage with 9 year old girl was also not considered bad.

Marriage with Three year old Child was ok in the Jewish Society
Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B

A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.
(Mishnah Niddah 5:4)

the renowned sexologist R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwardes said in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression (_The Cradle of Erotica_, Julian Press, New York:1962) said, "Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty."

Testimony of a Jew
Actually I contacted a Jew who lives in Israel, I asked her about it, She says it was norm in the Jewish society also. She is at another forum and you can ask her for your full satisfaction.

Jesus's father was 90 year old when he married 12 year old Mary

A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates

Catholic Encyclopedia

And remember, Mary had given birth to Jesus before it. So basically you are questioning God ALSO!

Child brides , a norm in the West
According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169.[[3]] Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.
http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

This post has been edited by Kalaam: Oct 5 2010, 01:31 AM