Let me start by saying that I am an agnostic, but I have been on this earth for 58 years and have never heard this happen from any Religion but one.

Chant in the street an declare thing like:

"Death to America"
"Death to Bush"
"Death to Israel"
"Death to Rushdie"
"Death to Van Gogh"

and so on...


Why don't other religions do this after people or beliefs of the religion have been wronged? Are they more righteous?

oh please

and then the guy says Americas not just attacking Islam.

Your not going to touch people with pathetic pompous attempts like this patriotic American.

Hmm...tell me where else does it happen in the world where houses are razed to the ground by bulldozers? Women raped by soldiers, forced to strip and be humiliated even they are not raped? The elderly killed, children being tortured? None other than by the USA and Israel!!!

As for Rushdie and Van Gogh, we Muslims don't insult Jesus or Moses or David, or anybody else. They're our Prophets too. If you go to any Muslim country, save the most secular and American-influenced countries, you won't find any of this sh!t. It's only in your culture. Look again you guys, and you'll see the Truth.

May Allaah swt guide us all.... Inshallah Inshallah.

Is it that obvious I am talking about Islam?

I am serious... honestly. I am trying to understand.

Why does the "True Religion" do this, the "Religion of Peace", but the other, not so peaceful and truthful religions don't do this. I never see this happen in the streets of America. Actually, even Muslims don't do this in America. Is it more a cultural thing or is it regional?

Please, I don't mean to offend... I am a coureous non-believer who may look for a path to God one day... help me understand, please.

Think about it... Islam has many faces. Take Somolia for example. They are 100% Muslim there, yet violence is everywhere in their land. They attacked and killed a Christian Nun who was there for over 30 years helping the poor. They are killing each other everyday.

Some sects in Africa cut the clitoris from a woman, but most Muslims find this appalling.
Some believe you still have hormones in your body when you go the heaven, so there sexual desires will be satisfied with many virgins. Sex in heaven? For what purpose?
How would a wife fell about this? What if she died with her husband? He gets virgins, what does she get. Where does she go while he is having sex with virgins? Do Muslim women ask these questions?

Wahhabi
Sharia law

Was is the differance between these? Do they all follow the same Quran'?

I am truely tring to understand, but sometimes the questions are blunt and I am sure difficult to answer to.

Perhaps I should not be asking these questions of a woman. If I have offended you I am sorry. Would it be best if I asked these questions of a man?

If these things are not true... please forgive me

May love follow and guide you

You're asking questions, but they aren't too willing to answer. What does that mean?

The questions being asked are all meant to degrade, belittle, and show a complete lack of respect for any Muslim reading these questions. They are the stock and trade of the killers who do everything in their power to destroy the image, and heart of any Muslim who reads such ugly ideas, that have nothing to do with Islam.

What does it mean that killers hang out in this forum, killers of all peacful feelings between Muslims and good hearted people who just want to get along with each other?

What drives such individuals? Why do they feel the need to say such things in public places like this one? What are the real reasons they feel that they need to attack Isalm, and anyone that is willing to stand up for it in a public place?

Could this be a war on Islam? Could this be a war on Muslms? Could the people here that I have read their ideas, and their interactions with Mulsims be really out to do the kind of damage they are inflicting upon Isalm and the hearts of the Muslims here?

Do they have any of the mirror neurons in thier brains that are required for empathy, or understanding what they are doing to the hearts of those who Love God, and Love the Quran?

What will it take for the people here to take a look in the mirror, and realize that it is them that needs to change before there will ever be any peace between them and Muslims?

What will it take for these people to stop hating Mulisms? Will it take them to feel what they are doing to the Muslims here? Will that stop them? Or will it take something more, like a direct act of God to punish these people from the crimes they are guilty of in places like this one... A heart attack perhaps after they read some post online, a slip and fall in the bathtub? Just what will it take to silence this ugly form of racism and hatred we find printed here?

Who will stop the rain?

Who are those that ridicule those who stand up for Islam here? Who are those that have the need to consistantly question those who believe in God as is recorded in the Quran? Who are those that accuse those who claim to be Muslims? Why do they have such a deep rooted need? What is the force behind that need to shame Muslims for the sins of men and women that they have not even met? What is that force behind the need hold Mulsims to a standard that is higher than they themselves do not even come close to achiving? What feelings do these people get by asking questions or making statments that cast doubt on articles of faith? What is the opposite of faith? What is the end of of doubt? Is not death because of fear? Is not fear the way we die? So why are these killers of faith need to kill faith in others?

Whatever you have to make up in your mind to come up with some weak reason not to answer the questions.

But then we've went over all this with me.



It means the correct questions that don't be dared honestly answered were asked least the truth rears it's ugly head.



Really? My, that says sumpin in itself now, doesn't it?



Difficult? Nah, don't think so.

How do Patriot? Lemme help you out here some, I've allready asked these questions...

http://muslimonline.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5379

I wish you the best of luck gettin answers. I got fairly far with these guys before they shut down. Maybe you should read that thread, learn from it and carry on from there. I actually got them to where they were blaming the Shi'ia Muslims.

They ain't as clever as they fancy themselves.

Best of luck.

When will I begin to get answers for all of my questions? I see questions being answered by questions. Is it not justifiable to do the same? Why should I answer anyones questions that refuse to answer mine truthfully?

Do we really see honesty, and humbliness in the questions being asked by the non believers here of the believers? Do we see the honest seeking of the answers the believers have to offer, or do we see questions upon questions that have another more sinister aim at the heart?

Who are those that dis-respect Muslims here on this board by asking questions meant with malice and painting pictures of Muslims that blur the Millions upon Millions of good hearted Muslims that live their lives with respect toward others who believe in God?

Distorting the face of those who respect unbelievers who do not wage war of words or war of death and destruction? Those who patiently wait for the Judgment of God to come upon those who deserve the penalty of hell.


If the shoe fits they say what?


Only asking questions eh? some questions that are being asked, some questions indeed, and the fact of the matter is if those who asked these so called questions, were truthful with the seers, and the general public alike, who can see what is being really done by these questions, and understand very well the hidden intent behind the endless questions that have no serious merit in obtaining the information that is being asked on the surface, but have a more hidden sinister nature behind them to intimidate, divide and create chaos, meant to distort and disrupt those who honestly are asking genuine questions with the heart intent of finding out the real answers that the Muslims here have to offer.

Thus isn't this another front on the war on Islam that is being waged with "questions", instead of with bullets, bombs, physical death and destruction of mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, children, cities, towns, settlements, and nations that we see on television and in the news every day? Only isn't this front more sinister than those that at least wear uniforms and face each other on the real battlefield? This is a battle field of the heart, where no one is really who or what their words say that they are, and have a more direct access deep into the minds and hearts living in their living rooms, bedrooms among their families and friends.

Isn't this battle being waged in this place a much more evil battle? A battle for the minds and hearts of those who read and expose themselves in a way that makes them vulnerable to those with the kind of intent we see here with the professed innocence of "only asking questions" hurt the Ummah deeply in a way only God can heal? Are these people really as innocent as what this poster claims to be? Or are there those on this forum just like so many like it that seek to destroy the hearts of Muslims?

So when will my questions begin to be answered? When will the Judgment of God come into this place, I plead with God that Justice will be delivered into place and every forum like it where we see those who are dedicated to waging a war upon the true of heart, without any thought, or remorse in the words that they write, and have malice in their hearts toward those that Love God.

I pray that weapons of words are manufactured to silence the war on my brothers and sisters in this and every religious forum on the Internet today. I pray that every Muslim here and everywhere becomes educated in this war on the hearts and minds of Muslims, and anyone that comes into places like this one.

I pray that those that have committed themselves to creating an environment for the honest understanding between humankind, will educate themselves in how to properly administer a forum, and execute fair justice in elimination of those like we see here waging war on the hearts and minds of innocent hearts. Would design forums that will permit the thread starters to monitor and delete posts that they feel are disruptive of the intent of the thread, and not leave this to a select few.

Would it not be a more peaceful experience, one that is fertile for the salvation of souls, if we did not see the kind of rhetorical, mean spirited endless questions meant for humiliation, intimidation, and the taking captive weak hearts and minds here in places like this?

Then ask.



I'm the smartest man alive. What does humbleness have to do with a question? I see you're not so humble as to not demand how the non-believers can petition you. It's a forum slick, welcome to the real world.

Do you want to see the entire world under the Sharia?

Should Arab women be allowed to vote?

How much did you pay for a muffler?

Umm...you invade, you kill, and you don't expect to hear people wish death upon you?

I don't know how you came up with that "no one else does that" crap but its just that a load of bull.

Would you sit quietly while your people are being slaughtered?

Why can't some serious changes be made on this forum to reduce this "noise" to a minimum and permit those who seriously desire to seek the answers that Muslims have to offer the ability to ask and get those answers without all the rhetoric?

I see that on other forums they are discussing ways to reduce or eliminate those with malice intent from destroying the peace that our Creator has promised us here.

Some of the ideas are these:

Have levels of freedom depending upon the number of posts made:

The newbie might have only one section available to them, and only certain
subjects will be permitted there.

The next level might gain more freedom to post in places where more sensitive
subjects would be permitted.

The next level might be a approval level based upon how they have done in the
lower levels of the permission structure.

More specifically have sections that are completely off limits to anyone except
those who profess Islam.

Something has to be done about this problem, and there are more than just me complaining about the same thing. I believe God will give us a answer soon.

I still like the idea of giving the thread starter power and responsibility over their threads, but all forums do not have this built into the capability of the software.

In any case, the day is coming where we will see an end to this madness, and the beginning of the forum to meet the expectations and promises they were designed to achieve...

Are you stupid or just senile?

You say you never see it anywhere else, but have you truly ever looked?
Fox news isn't going to show you anything to the contrary but you have the Internet, you can easily google search a few terms and get your information.

You just love being close minded eh?

Please, I don't mean to offend... I am a coureous non-believer who may look for a path to God one day... help me understand, please.


My god...are you stupid?
I would post one of my sources here...but I found something from a source a close minded person such as yourself would appreciate.

Somalia was the first true Islamic state in a while. 99.9% muslim (excluding the U.S. supported leaders). Ethiopia created chaos. There was finally order when they had an Islamic government

YOU REALLY need to get out more...

The death of the Missionaries were because of the Ethiopian invasion, Somalia turned to Islam because of U.S. involvement.

The U.S. supported the Somali dictators, The Somali warlords and the Ethiopian imperialists.



and this is about "death to america" how?

Circumcision has been around for millenia...I know your not going to say its just some muslim thing...



What was it you said to me? Pick up a quran? I do beleive you're in DIRE need of one right now. It will answer all of your question, a quick google search will provide you with the answers you seek.


Al Wahhab is one of the 99 names of god, it means bestower. If your talking about the Salafi movement in AL-Islam, the followers of Abdalwahhab then it is a group.

Sharay'ah is a vague term... Sharay'ah means the source...in a literally since it would be where the river forms, or where the stream begins. Sharay'ah is where Fiqh(law) is derived. In This Case Sharay'ah would mean, Quran, Hadith, Reason, and the will of the people.



More like, full of hate and bias...



You seriously need to get out more man...
If you really want to know the answers to your questions, stop being lazy and google "Quran Browser".

Did you seriously just tell someone to "ask a question", Oh the Irony...


Well being humble is the best way to get an answer to a question...thats simple etiquette.

If you act like you know everything then why would you ask a question in the first place???

I love it when you throw around terms you don't know the meaning too...

Personally I would...


Whats with your fascination with arab women, Its getting creepy man...

How many times must we go over this, Under Islamic Law ALL women are allowed to vote? K?

It also chases away those who could give the forum depth of knowledge because they simply cannot stand to see Islam insulted.

Certainly there can be a balance between the two, if it is thought out properly and implemented effectively.

But is your forum not mine, however one day perhaps the realization may occur to you that the forum belongs to those who choose to camp out there, not just those who established it, or currently administer it.

I would hate to see someone like John to leave, you have nailed one of the most knowledgeable people that I have seen in a very long time come and join your forum.

Perhaps he has the thick skin to stay, but if he is attacked, you may find he disappears.....

Like I said the forum is yours to do with what you want, but people have a choice of forums, and I don't know anyone that likes to be insulted.

I beg to differ...

Those people who would endorse the invasion of a country because they thought he was "wrong" I'd call em killers.

Merciless, Cold-Hearted, Killers.

These people for whom bread is not enough, these people for whom life is just a "resource" these are killers.

In a democratic society though, the opinion turns into action.

Supporting Killing, the actions of the killer, providing them with what they need to kill, this I personally believe makes you a killer.

True. True.
Then again though, Power always resides in the hands of the people, My point being The American people aren't doing enough to oppose war. Patriot for example, supports it. He has no problem with the raping of women and indiscriminate killing of civilians. People like him denounce such things as "well that's how war is". Human lives are nothing but statistics to them.

As for your comment about deep pockets, we can also comment on how the American people still haven't realized that there exists a government within a government, i.e. Federal Reserve.

When people go with the flow, take no blame, remain "victims", choose ignorance, are they really worth saving? These are the "innocent killers" and the sad part is that they're really killing themselves.

To comment on this killer term. From the definitions I've seen everyone is guilty then. Its just the point of view on chooses to take. Some support Isreal who does thier thing. Others support Palestine who does thier thing. Both sides are doing bad things with no regard to the other side. These are not the only 2 countries doing this. Right now I'm most concerned with Darfur and how come we(America) hasn't done anything more than mention we need to help and intervine. Just read U.N peace force won't be in till 2010. What the hell is up with that.

Many are doing what they feel is all they can do. Protest against and when the time comes vote for the jackals that support your views.

The few that do it are not enough If people want real change get out there and change stuff.

Did you mean the federal reserve? If so boy could we talk there.

couldn't we though...

To comment on this killer term. From the definitions I've seen everyone is guilty then. Its just the point of view on chooses to take. Some support Isreal who does thier thing. Others support Palestine who does thier thing. Both sides are doing bad things with no regard to the other side. These are not the only 2 countries doing this. Right now I'm most concerned with Darfur and how come we(America) hasn't done anything more than mention we need to help and intervine. Just read U.N peace force won't be in till 2010. What the hell is up with that.

Are you serious?
"Death to America" would solve most of the problems we have.

Palestine and Zionism.

The Palestinians are being occupied, you cant blame a person being oppressed to attack the oppressor, Its when the people dont fight theres a problem. One shouldn't sit back and get killed, WHILE being occupied. Both sides doing bad things? Whats bad about trying to fight an enemy you can't even see? The American people can learn from the Palestinians.

P.S. Palestine is not currently a "country" its being occupied remember, it has no control over its resources etcetera.

How America being gone would benefit them: The regional puppets would fall, Israeli Aid from America would cease, leaving Israel on equal terms with its neighbors...

Darfur

With China being a U.S. ally and the cause for the conflict, how can you advocate that the U.S. "Do something". Hell, anyone from darfur would rather say Death to america than america come help, No one in the region wants America to come in, Have you seen what they did to Somalia? The people of Darfur want Islamic law, The U.S. doesn't want that. China is a key U.S. ally, the two would never turn against each other, the situation in Darfur is no different than Iraq.

Civil conflicts created for the cause of Oil. The U.S. would be a hypocrite to condemn it.

In the cause of Self Determination one needs to destroy its oppressors, be it a Tyrant, Its Currency, Imperialists, or a corporate entity. In Darfur, the JEM fight Daily to obtain the land that they lost in the invasion of 2003, so that the Chinese could look for oil.
In Palestine they fight daily just to send a message to the world, We won't be destroyed so easily.

To put the deaths of Palestinians on the Same scale as the Israeli's is Idiotic. 100 to 1 ratios can't be compared.
To put the Death of the Furi on the same scale as the Chinese or the groups helping them is ludicrous and idiotic. They're dying at an even greater ration than the Palestinian to Israeli death, even the Iraqi to American death toll fails in comparison.

Hamas, The JEM, the ICU, they wouldn't have the opposition that they do if it wasn't for america. What to do when you have the hearts of your people, but the rest of the world hates you?

I tried him on that one, he said "it happens".



When one tries to bring up a counter point and its dismissed in a heart beat, thats choosing ignorance.


What can I say, "Only Approved questions get answered". So many Americans Blindly pay income tax without realizing that there is no law...


Oooh how many people say, "I don't like the war, but I didn't vote for bush so its not my fault". People Don't ask why, denying yourself that is the equivalent of choosing to not know hence, choosing ignorance.



I wouldn't say "Daily", but its better than it use to be...
In America we have the "right to bear arms", the power always rests with the people, no matter the system, they just have to have the cajones to take it.

China/U.S "friendship" is surface deep. Our businesses for reasons I don't agree with go to China for cheap labor. The Chinese do not like us. Matter of fact they plan on ruling us in the next 50 yrs. Why do you think they are buying up all our debts at an alarming rate. What would happen if they called on them all at once. That is probably the real reason we haven't done anything in Darfur.

Talkin about the world, not just america...




Are you serious? More like The Big bully who stole the other kids playground, and then the kid goes and gets his other tiny borthers, but then the bully gets helps from the adults.

Israel has U.S. support, and is the only nuclear power in the region, It wa screated from STOLEN LAND. You cant call it the little kid there....Israel was created from U.S. and European weopons, Numbers don't matter when you have nukes...

U.N. security council...The One supporting Israel from the Top is the U.S..
With it gone Israel would be forced to play fair.

There's a reason Egypt and Jordan declared peace, and it aint because they agree with Israel.

You talk about the corporations, they're behind Israel.
You talk about The Fed, they're behind Israel.

The United Nations have issued so many decrees against Israel, none of which were followed. Theres a reason for that,


You forget, Our corporate weapon. The American corporations and The Fed would bail us out If china called us up on the debt...The wars are really being fought by the corporations this time around. Its like a new Cold War.

And It all started in 1913...

Foot soldiers are just a distraction while the real war wages. A War for everything superficial and spirituality worthless.

State Capitalism, It was the definition of fascism, and now we're seeing the fascist U.S. and China battle it out.

China in Sudan, U.S. in Iraq.

Both Security council members.

Now, I think you know that when I mean a 'dead america' I mean an isolationist america that doesn't try and screw with the world at every chance it gets.

When you say people are not in 'favor' of the war, what do you mean? Do you really think that they're fed up with the amount of people we're killing, Do you really think that they just realized that we're not in Iraq as liberators? Those Statistics you have, would they be different if the U.S. was winning ?

Are you familiar with the works of Marx? Locke? Jefferson? Swift? People put up with a lot of crap, but they don't have too. A civil war is a lot different than an Invasion. The People ALWAYS have the power to change their government, making excuses doesn't help them. Jefferson, a revolutionary himself, knew that there would come a time when his system would be broken, he said and I quote "Every generation needs a revolution." Thats why we have the right to bear arms, A volunteer military would never turn against its own families. SO the Government using the military wouldn't be an option.

If the people can't stand up to tyranny then well, I think swift said it best, people are better off eating their own children if you are to be a coward.

Dead America...man...The End to the Fed, The end to America's Imperial Influence.

Have you all seriously thought that when people say death to america they meant some sort of Genocide?

As much as people listen to Bush/Chaney Speeches, How about Listening to a Certified translation of a speech made by Ayatollah Khamenei, Usama bin ladin, Saddam AL Tikriti, etc.

You sure about the daily part?

I have been a anti war activist for most of my life. Vietnam historically is where I started. One of the points that has been discussed is why we were so effective then, and now it seems we are not.

Some of the answers are these:

The music played on the radios now are controlled by the corporations, not the dj's anymore. There are now playlists that are set down by the corporations that have explicitly removed any song with the word war in the songs.

Music was the way the numbers of people were out in force to end the vietnam war.

On the other hand, the Anti War movement DID do something to stop this war. In the last major election all the new politicians were elected to end the war. Then what happened?

Nancy Pelosia was a benidict aronld she sold us out, traded away a higher miniumn wage for stopping the funding to the war.

Most Americans that worked very very hard to get the bums out of office, are now discouraged, and now seriously thinking about a revolution. Given up on the Democrats, including mr obama.

The Ron Paul revolution is a example of how many americans are feeling now. Have no standing military, no federal government to speak of. It is a idea that is growing, but is still very small in numbers..

We here do not believe in violent change, but we are willing to revolt. But not by killing people, that doesnt make us any better than those in power.

America will change, and if Obama sells us all out, and continues America's presence in the ME and does nothing about the Zionests, I believe the third party will become a serious contender in 2012.

We are trying to change America, but realisticly I think what you will see is a slow seperation between the states. You will start to see States take more control and give the finger to the Federal Government.

You can see a lot of that happening, even in Oregon not long ago, the Governor told the Feds he was taking back his troops to fight fires. It was unprecedented.

I think the best counter argument to your argument is to show places where Non Muslims have said death to America:

Taiwanese People

Hugo Chavez & Venezuela

European

On my own personal experience, I was in Wales UK once and had an American accent and some university students chanted "F*** AMERICA!" "and threw beer bottles at me and my group.

Patriot, the only way to understand how much we as Americans are hated in other countries is to go to other countries.

Wow... killer, supporter of rape? I can't believe what I have been reading.
I support rape because I recognized that this sort of thing happens ON BOTH SIDES? Did you bother to mention that I thought it to be deplorable? Because I acknowledge it's existence, I support rape? If your news media is telling you that all the Americans do is kill innocent civilians and rape women, I must question your sources. You must really be brainwashed if you don't see that mentality as somewhat biased.
I am sure you would never acknowledge any good that has come or may come from the Americans.
You obviously have taken what I said completely out of context due to your anger and frustration. I will forgive you for that.
I offered a western perspective on some of the more controversial issues that most in the west are very curious about. I did this for two reasons. I wanted to find out if they were true and to give an opportunity to explain if they are. You say Google is the answer, yet the typical reaction to that approach is "biased news source". I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I wanted the "man on the street" Muslim perspective, and I got it… claims of insulting Islam because I asked difficult questions. Personal insults… killer, supporter of rape… etc.

I meant no malice. Yes, I do support the "war of terror" because of the many attacks against many people by Muslim extremists. These extremist are not from any one country or organization. The attacks have come from individuals of every Muslim dominated country in the world. This does not mean I hate Muslims anymore than I hate Christians because of groups like the KKK. I will always support action against extremist of any kind who wants me killed for what I believe. I believe Israel deserved statehood, so I should be killed? I believe the Palestinians deserve statehood too. Do the Israelis want me killed for it? The way I see it… The Arabs want it all, Israel wants a piece and the Persians want the Israelis dead. No one can deny that the Jews did have a piece of the "Holy Land" at one time.

Chuck says the only way to understand the hatred of Americans is to go to other countries. I have been to many other countries and quite frankly I don't see the hatred from individuals I meet and besides, I really don't care if others hate Americans. I believe that many non-western countries have a biased, government controlled media that is used to manipulate the opinion of their citizens. When I see a media that is allowed to say whatever they want about their government, like in the US, then I will have some trust for that media's validity.

So back to the subject… in a nut shell, I upset some individuals because I said things that were true. I say this because either there was no response to a question or the response was just anger at me for asking such a question, or fingers were pointed in another direction to avoid answering the question or the question was only half answered. Evasiveness at it's best. On the subject of circumcision, one responded with, "circumcision has been going on for thousands of years", what he didn't mention was that countries like Egypt, Somalia and many African countries remove the entire clitoris. This is not circumcision, this is mutilation.

Why be angry at me for mentioning things that are true. Because you do not condone them does not make it less true. If they are not done as a result of Muslim beliefs, then be angry at those who do it in the name of Islam… not me!

Your anger is directed at the wrong person, on this subject anyway. Be angry at me for my support of the war, but not for truths that you do not want to confront about Islam. Let me give you an example of what I mean. If the Quran' or a Hadith says a man or woman should be circumcised and explained how it should be done, yet other Muslim sects interpret this in such a way to mutilate and destroy what God gave a woman for a very specific reason… to enjoy the act of procreation, the same as a man. This is an unfortunate truth about Islam. There is no central authority to guide all its followers in the same direction. I believe this happens for cultural reasons… the tribal mentality. Please don't point out that this is true with other religions too. I don't care about other religions and this site is about Islam. I am trying to find out as much as I can about Islam because of the situation in today's world. The more I look at the various religions, one stands out… Islam. No other religion I have investigated has such control over its followers, particularly women. Com'on, don't get upset. Stop and think about it. Death for conversion to a different faith? I would think twice before I converted to say Christianity if I was threatened with death. It appears to be very male dominated, which I guess is alright as long as it is not abused. Too much control has been given to mortal men on issues of an individual's morality. How can such trust be given to men who have proven they can not be trusted with such power. No man should be given this power. In my opinion, this is the root of all curruption

I think the reason many Muslims get angry about comments non-believers or other religions make, is due to what I said above regarding no central authority which has resulted in many different beliefs and religious practices within Islam. How does one come to understand a religion that has such a diverse following with so many interpretations of how to practice the religion of Islam? How would anyone know what is of the "True Islam" and what is not? The only way I know is to ask questions. The reaction to this is almost always ANGER

I really appreciate about a forum are the elements of choice, particularly the choice to read or not read a section or set of threads.

This is the third forum I have posted in and I would say that to begin with, they were always a challenge. I know when I came to this forum, I was horrified by some of the posts I read and took great personal offence to them. In fact, some of the statements shook my faith in human-kind. I had to stop reading some of those threads for a while because they just weren't good for my peace of mind (or piece of mind).

However, I was eventually drawn back to them because there was an emotional and social significance to the ideas and beliefs being discussed, as awful as they were to me.

I wonder whether your continued read and participation in these kinds of threads is because they have some form of significance to you. They may upset you but they may also engage you in some way. I see that as a good thing. After all, the world is both beautiful and ugly. I know I want to see both.

What has America wrought that was good?
A 200 year slavery trade? The Most Tragic and devastating one of all time?
The Monroe Doctrine?
Native American Genocide?
An Imperial Policy around the world, thats killing millions and oppressing many more?

You sir are a brainwashed product of the american media, if you can't see that your media is biased you surely must be blind.

I'm 16 and I've noticed it, for you there is no excuse.



Completely out of context? Anger? Frustration? You support the killing of my people, you call my people names, you support the oppressors of my people and yet you don't expect anger?

This Notion is absurd.

You support the War on Terror, why because you say "americans were attacked", I'm even going to disregard the fact that a lot of your sources are just straight up bogus. You expect America to enslave, oppress, kill, rape, maim and remain blameless? My God, you can't even open your eyes enough to see that the U.S. isn't even democratic. Your too Blind to realize your currency controls your own Government.


That is MALICE, you support the war that is killing so many right now its a shame, you even admit that Iraq has done nothing to you. Why must Iraqis be killed because THEY HAVE BELIEFS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR OWN? You call my people names, you compare them to the KKK which by the way was supported by your own damn government!

America like Israel was created in a genocidal rampage by a group of people who found themselves genetically superior, so I guess you DO have something in common there eh?

Yes, if you want Palestinian sovereignty they will want you dead, haven't you read the news? A guy named Ron Paul, he actually wants a Palestinian state, Israeli's want him dead, Jimmy carter speaks to hamas, Israel wants him dead. American christian walks Palestinian kids to school, gets beat half to death by Israeli's.

The Jews did live in the Holy Land for one time, when the Christians kicked them out we let them in. Zionism isn't Judaism though, Zionism is Racism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm


What countries and where in them? Have you spoken to anyone in anything but english? were in the presence of REAL people not the fakes put up in tourists attractions?

Biased government controlled media? Are you serious?

That is the EMBODIMENT OF THE AMERICAN MEDIA. Ever wonder why you never heard Ron Paul Give a speech? Or Anyone ever critise Israel on the Air?

For you to say, "non western media" is like that Is Hypocritical, Idiot, and quite frankly Racist.




There you go generalizing, Female Circumcision isn't even that COMON, its a rare thing, and yes, circumcision has been done for thousands of years. In a way, Circumcision is mutilation, depends on how you define it. Hell Tattoos are Mutilation, Plastic Surgery is too. Piercings, etc.

You said nothing that was true, the only thing frustrating is how quick you cling to your ignorance.

Evasiveness, no. I'm coming at you head on, you;ve yet to show any proof to back up your claims.


You haven't mentioned anything true to date, just a bunch of lies your government spews that even the FBI doesn't listen too

Goto Usama's Most wanted page if you wish to know what I mean, I've linked you before, if you want to stay ignorant be my guest.


Your ignorance IS frustrating, Its called the Internet, you have databases, READ for the sake of god man READ!!!

How can you even say what a truth about a religion is if you don't even know it?
You obviously know nothing about the quran if you think circumcision is in it, or stoning, or death for conversion to another faith.

I think you're confusing QURAN with the BIBLE.

Heck a simple google search "Quan and stoning" you'll get so many learned scholars telling you its not in quran...

Don't get upset? How can I not be upset, A frekkin Moron is trying to Lecture me about my religion without having picked up a quran in his lifetime.

First of all, you're over exaggerating the issue of female circumcision, in those muslim societies that do it, Its Circumcision, NO CLITORIS IS REMOVED!

You say I've been listening to propaganda? You say Islam stands out? hmmm let me think abut that, maybe its because there's an agenda right now. You only see news about muslims because THATS THE ATTITUDE THE MEDIA IS TRYING TO EMBED INTO YOUR MIND. Oh and guess what, YOU'RE FALLING FOR IT LIKE AN IDIOT.

Control? Are you serious? Islam has no central authority, We have Scholars but we don't have some monarch like pope, telling us what to do. That's FREEDOM, something you wouldn't know about.

Fear No one but ALLAH(SWT), thats one of the core beliefs in Islam, he are a people of God-Fear and earthly detachment. That's Islam. TRUE FAITH.

My challenge to you is to find any of the stuff you said is in Islam in the quran.

I'm telling you now you wont find it. Just try though.

Quran is the farthest thing from corruption.
Its been passed down in an unchanged text AND kept in the Oral Traditional.



First of all "you think" you don't know because you don't know crap about Islam, you have yet to make the conscious effort to TRY and Understand it. No central Authority In Islam. Its Up to the INDIVIDUAL to his or her ISLAM, you say Islam is oppressive but HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A SYSTEM BE OPPRESSIVE IF THE CHOICE IS LEFT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL???

How does one find true Islam, if you weren't such an idiot you'd know it were in your own heart. You get anger because your stupidity and your constant ignorance blinds you at every turn.

It's either an oppressive religion, or a telling illustration of the mentality of the followers of Islam. We can assume that by the statement "HOW IN THE WORLD CAN A SYSTEM BE OPPRESSIVE IF THE CHOICE IS LEFT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL???" To me, that means that there are an awful lot of Muslims out there that know exactly what they are doing. It's their choice, remember.

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I never said anything about the Quran... only what the world observes.

You are in serious denial... or you are living a very sheltered life

Again.... why are you living in America?

quote patriot
I never said anything about the Quran... only what the world observes.

You are in serious denial... or you are living a very being sheltered life

Again.... why are you living in America?



Land of the free, home of the brave , and freedom of religion.

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First off I would like to say that I was very please to see a reply that was intellegant, specific and open minded. I thank you for that.

Yes, the rhetoric and accusations come from all sides and no one is free of guilt and I realize that samantics often get in the way of understanding some things that are said, but the real issue is how do we achieve a peace that all sides will accept when there are so many people on the fringes that do not want it?

People like Al-Din'As-Darfur that believe that America and Israel are the devil and all Muslims are justified to fight this devil. Is it possible for people like this to understand both sides of the situation when they are being filled with hate everyday? I think Death to America or Israel means something differant to them than what you propose.

As you say, most Americans are against us being in Iraq, but they still understand that the "War on Terror" must be won and that we may need the help of Muslims to do it.

There are many Muslims in America and virtually all of them that I have spoken to will tell you that "Extremist Islamist" go against the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh) and the word of God as stated in the Quran'. I wouldn't know... I never read it. You tell me... is it true? When I discuss this with people like Al-Din'As-Darfur, I get nowhere. He would never stand up and admit that they are wrong.

Anyway... I have to go for now. I would like to continue this conversation.

Thank you... and may peace be with you

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I was listening to the radio today, and a piece of news came over the speakers that said that Secratary of State Rice was in the Middle East talking to the Israeli and Palestinian leadership about- what- achieving peace in the region. The fair thing to say is that the U.S. government IS putting pressure on Israel to use restraint in it's retaliation. It was the U.S. that pressured Israel to leave Lebanon, and not a military defeat like some would like to believe. That, and Israel was clear with the statement they they weren't at war with Lebonon, but Hezbollah. The group that crossed into Israel and kidnapped an Israeli soldier. And it IS putting pressure on them to come to some kind of agreement with the Palestinians. Bush, the lame duck that he is, is on the record as saying that he wants peace in the region before he leaves office. Whether or not that will happen depends on the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Another issue is the fact that both sides want Jeruslem. That's what this boils down to. Both cite their religion as the source for their separate claims. That's the danger of religion in politics, and religion controlling too many aspects of one's life. Neither side are willing to share the holy site to them both, although, I'm inclinded to believe that Israel would welcome all Muslims that wanted to worship if they would just stop bombing them and committing acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians. There is a Muslim in the Israeli Prime Minister's cabinet. Another fact is that it was the Arab League(the Palestinians) that rejected the initial U.N. deal to start with and took it upon themselves to attack Israel, a legal state whether they like it, or not. Not to mention the fact that both the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel pre date Palestine in the region of land that we're talking about. History is on Israel's side when it comes to who has the more legit claim to the land in question. It wasn't until between 132-135 C.E. that the Roman Emporer Hadrian began calling what was once Judea, or Judah, or Israel "Palastina" in an effort to wipe out the identity of the region. That's history. That's fact.

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The thing is, there can be no compromise exactly because of the religous component.
The Jews would never accept an Islamic government. They've tried that, and were treated as second class citizens. Something provable by history. The Muslims will never accept a Palestinian state that does not include Jerusalem. That's where the quagmeir happens.

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Oh dear god, you people don't learn...

Just because Condi is over there doesn't mean Bush is committed.
The U.S. is Not putting pressure on Israel. It NEVER has.

You cant invade the land of a people and say "we only came to get out Hezbollah". Thats SCAPEGOATING, and its kinda hypocritical that you'd defend that but not rocket attacks against Israel.

Bush Is just putting on a show before he leaves, Presidents in the past have devoted more than the few months bush put into it.

These people lost their homes in 1948.
To deny them their land is less than human.

They were treated a heck-of-a lot better in Muslim lands than in Christian ones.

Its not the Religious component thats what people like you fail to realize, these people stole their land, razed their homes, killed their people.

Ethnic cleansing for a statistic???

That's just sick.

You need to freshen up on your history, and any knowledge you might have on Islamic Law.

Qui vult dare parva non debet magna rogare.

He who wishes to give little shouldn't ask for much.


If no one is free from blame why support Israel?
You've never once condemned them here.

Hypocrisy much?



There you go assuming. Its the right OF ALL PEOPLE, to fight their oppressors. If you don't want them to be filled with hate, heres something, STOP KILLING THEM.


What "War on terror"??? Even freggin John "100 years" Mcain said it was for oil.




Whats with you and you're one sidededness?
I won't admit their wrong? For Defending what little is left of their land?
There's something seriously wrong here.

How can you tell me what goes against the quran when you haven't read it?
Truth is your not knowledgeable enough to have a real debate with yet.

Remember the quote I started this with. Its so very relevant. You want me do denounce a man, stripped of all his rights, fighting for what little he has left in the hopes that he might get what he had back some day??

You sir, are the close minded one.
You sir, are the bigot.

You say no one is free from blame, yet you and your ideals are somewhat superior to all.

This is hypocrisy but I guess Julius Caesar said it best.

Homines id quod volunt credunt.

Men Believe what they want to.

Read a bit more before calling people close-minded.

Asses the situation before making yourself look like a moron.

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Its not that black and white, Its not about religion.

Its about Ethnic Cleansing for a Jewish Majority.

Jews and Muslims, Christians too now, shared that site for hundreds of years.

THATS FACT.

If you know your biblical stories you'd know there were two nations
One Called Israel One called Judah. The People called the Philistines, were warring with the jews, the romans called the PROVINCE OF JUDAH palestina because they knew the Israelites hated the philistines.

Israel and Judah were separate guy...

Judah being more of a practicing state than Israel by the way.

If you want to go back in time then go back.

Go back to the 7 nations of canon.

Don't stop with Hadrian. That's like me saying America is trying to erase Masri heritage because they're calling them Egyptians.

You really don't know much about the conflict do you?

Oh wow one muslim in the cabinet!

Ever heard of the term "token"? No educated person would use a sole member as an example. Oh wow, theres a muslim congressmen in the U.S. too does that mean the U.S. isn't going to kill or be biased against muslims Of course not, Gitmo, Iraq War, Aghan War.

THESE sir, ARE FACTS.

Yeah you mention the quran in ever post. Someone obviously doesn't know the difference between Islam and muslims.

Denial No sir this is you.

Oh that Tired Rhetoric? If you don't like our Viral Imperialistic ways then get out? I refuse to sit and do nothing while evil commits atrocities in my name.

Every Generation needs a Revolution
-Thomas Jefferson.

Who are you to judge a people, to condemn someone for not not condemning when you are in the exact same situation that you claim me to be in?

When I speak out against the evil committed in your name you defend it.

You live by your constitution, I live by the Book, The Glorious quran

The Difference between us is that I cant quote your book in context and show you why your current regime is going against your "american values" by waging this satanic war against humanity.

You do NOT know enough about my religion, my path to say what we should do or say.

I am American, I am muslim. I hate the *******ization of our constitution that has been portrayed since the creation of the federal reserve system.

America for Americans. Before you go defending Israel, how aout you go get your own rights back. You know those I.D. cards are comin' soon.