I got this from Al Kafi:

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (p): Our real status is a secret hidden under the cover of a covenant. God will bring disgrace to anyone who ridicules or insults us.

I have read that the Imams are the Elects of Allah, Infallibles, and His Proof to mankind. I have also read that they were created before anything else (at least Ali and Mahomet), and that the world and everything in it has been created for the sake of the Fourteen Infallibles; they are, therefore we are. And, of course, I know that Chiite Moslems call upon the Imams when they are distressed or seek help.



What then could be the real status of the Imams that is a hidden secret under the cover of a covenant?

Also not hidden is that they have knowledge of all our affairs, they are our guardians -- responders to cries for help and succor, verily, they are the Grace of Allah, manifest.

^ they r

Higher in rank than the angels. Who is Gabriel? I say a servant of the Imams, the dispensers of blessings.

Yet this is not hidden knowledge.

What then could be the real status of the Imams that is a hidden secret under the cover of a covenant?

they wernt created brfore prophet Mohammed saw and imam Ali as for sure. the first of creation was prophet Muhammed saw. after was imam Ali as, bibi Fatima (sa) (the prophet saww's daughter). imam hassan and hussain the prophet saww's grandsons. this is the soul that is being talked about. they could have beem made after the holy fives creation.

Gabriel or (jiraeel arabic) is the ArchAngel who gave messages from Allah to the prophet saw. the Holy Qur'an was revealed through him to prophet Muhammed saww.

This is the first time I have come across this in truth, I have no idea. it is hidden then we will never know.

^^I am myself not sure of the order of creation; what I have read for sure is that the Infallibles were created before all others.


Their manifest status is already pretty awesome; and to read that their real status is hidden is like...awesome (for a lack of superlative). <smiles>

It wouldnt be a secret now would it

thats so true. .. yeh the infallibles were a definatly created before the others.

we believe that when prophet Adam had to go on earth. he asked Allah to forgive him. while using the holy five's names.

an authetic narration written by a sunni scholar

"Ibn al Najjar narrates that Ibn Abbas asked Rasulullah (s) in connection with the above matter, and Rasul (s) stated, Adam send "Through Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husayn, please accept my repentance. Allah (swt) then accepted his repentance".
Tafseer Durre Manthur Volume 1 pages 60-61 by Imam of Ahlul Sunnah al Hafidh Jaladeen Suyuti

<<Killed Bill
<<It wouldnt be a secret now would it

You mean the Imams broke the covenant? Huh?

___________________________________________________________

<<Forgive_Me92
<<we believe that when prophet Adam had to go on earth.
<<he asked Allah to forgive him. while using the holy five's names

That's fantastic.


Really, they are already godlike; what can be their hidden status? Immortals? Do the Imams taste death like us mortals?

You know what bro. I honestly dunno. nope.
Everyone has to taste death as the holy Qur'an mentions.
Every soul shall have a taste of death. In the end to Us shall you be brought back. (29:57).

man.. it is mind boggling... pleaaaazzz stop mentioning it!!

I hope I am not committing a blasphemy against your Allah and the Infallibles, but can it be that "Us" refers to Allah and* the Infallibles? Can somebody check this up?

Your intention is just to ask. No that is impossible. Us is only a term given to one most respected in arabic lingo and grammer. In the holy Quran it refers to Allah the one.

Why impossible? Do the Imams have a role to play on the Day of Judgement?

there is soo much that we don't know about the infallible, yet we think they are great with the little knowledge that we have. i can't imagine how great we will find them when we find out all the truth about them.

i heard that deep sea explorers found a piece of Noah's ark and it had the five holy infallible names on it in Farsi.

so let really find out their true identity

^ yup that's true.. but not all the names were there.. just the 5.. the same ones who are mentioned in "hadeeth Alkesa'a", which are prophet Mohammad, Imam Ali, Sayda Fatima, Imam Hassan, and Imam Hussain..

the thing was created before everything was the noor "light" of the 5.. and not the actual them..


and yes all our 14 infallible have a role in the day of judgment.. they are like our saviors.. they would ask God to forgive their shias.. but they won't ask God to forgive those sinners who just have the name shia.. only for the ones who truly believe..

3ajal Allah al-faraj

>>Dayyanah
>>so let really find out their true identity

I heard Jabir b. Abdillah b. Haraam al-Ansari say: 'If Salman and Abu Dharr, may Allah bless them with mercy, were to divulge (the excellence of Ahlul Bait) to these people who claim to be the partisans of Ahlul Bait, they would say: "These two are liars." And if these were to see them, they would say: "These are insane."

Even the partisans of Ali will think they are liars and insane. <Wow>

Really, what can be their real status, their true identity?


>>Wonderer
>>and yes all our 14 infallible have a role in the day of judgment..
>>they are like our saviors

Can it not be that "Us" in that particular verse refers to Allah and the Infallibes, the way "Rabb" in a particular verse (Majlisi theread) refers to Ali?

ha? didn't get it :S

usually US is god talking abt himself in the plural sense in a magistic way>> that's wat FM92 already said

>>usually US is god talking abt himself in the plural sense in a magistic way

I hope I am not blaspheming. <Gloomy>

Usually "Rabb" refers to Allah, but in Coran (Chapter 76, Verse 21) it also refers to Saqi Kosar, Ali (please refer the Majlisi thread).

Can this not be a similar case where an exception has been made?

ok here's something u should know.. a new comer to Islam.. can't just look at Quran and hadith and interpreter it.. scholars take YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARS to understand a small fraction of em.. plus, I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer that or even try to interpret these things.. that's y I told u start with the easier things.. but u won't listen..

but bk to the topic.. our imams are the best! and their status is that they r perfect.. no need in trying and read more into it..

read their stories.. their sayings.. their philosophies.. they are just AMAZING!

Okay, I will see if somebody knowledgeable enough can comment on the possibility a la Majlisi. <smiles>

But what interests me more is the narrations about the real hidden status and the one involving Salman and Abu Dharr.

oh yah these 2 were pretty coooool 2

Right, dude. Say it twice. <Laughs>

interesting. I tell you why its impossible becasue if God has partners etc it makes him imperfect. imperfectness is not God's attributes. Allah says he is one. it is logically incoherent for him to be more than one aswell as fact.

secondly arabic is so vast ..unbelievably vast that one word can have upto fifteen meanings. A general arabic word is made up of three main letters. any word that contains those three letters is from the word.

maula- can be used as leader, protector, lord etc.. but its for us limited humans we rather use words that dont imply the meaning God coz that is not our intention. rabb can have many meanings. Imam Ali as name rabb probably means leader. It canot even suggest the word God. sumpreme being etc. this is verified even by the history. when people start saying to Ali as you are God he killed them on the spot. nowadays there are people who beleve he is God. They are called nusayris and are not muslims.

<<secondly arabic is so vast ..unbelievably vast that one word can have upto fifteen meanings.
<<A general arabic word is made up of three main letters. any word that contains those three letters is from the word.

Thanks for the crash course. <Laughs>

<<Imam Ali as name rabb probably means leader. It canot even suggest the word God. sumpreme being etc.
<<this is verified even by the history.
<<when people start saying to Ali as you are God he killed them on the spot.

Right. Just like by Maula (master) you don't intend to call Ali "Allah", I believe that Majlisi too didn't intend to call Ali "Allah" by using the word Rabb (lord). If you look at the beliefs of the Akhbaris, that is what they say: Ali is not Allah, but there are bigots who spew hatred against them.

<<nowadays there are people who beleve he is God.
<<They are called nusayris and are not muslims.

Are Nusayris Akhbaris? If so then I think you are mistaken because Akhbaris don't say Ali is Allah.


<<interesting. I tell you why its impossible becasue if God has partners etc it makes him imperfect.
<<imperfectness is not God's attributes.
<<Allah says he is one. it is logically incoherent for him to be more than one aswell as fact.

I get what you are saying, and I am not suggesting your Allah has partners.

Take the example of the principal of a school, who tells a student, "Meet me at the end of the day."

Or rather take the example of the principal of a school sitting in his office with the Maths teacher, and he tells a student, "Meet us at the end of the day." Just because he said "meet us*" it doesn't mean that they are both principals, and have become partners in principalship, right? The principal is the principal, the Maths teacher is the Maths teacher.

Do you get the drift? It's just that the Majlisi thread made me aware of the fact that there can be exception to the way words are used, and when you posted the verse about "returning" I became interested in knowing what you guys think about such a possibility. <smiles>

no problem for the crash course .

no nusayris are not akhbaris. they genuinely believe Ali is Allah. however as the case of akhbaris is concerned. thats the first time I came across the name. but I have had a debate with those people once. I totaly get where they are coming from however, my argument was this.. ok, we know he is not Allah. nor are you implying this. but why say rabb when other words can be used instead. not everybody is on the same level of understanind than you nor do they know your intentions. so you are better off saying a word which doesnt cuase discord and confusion. even though it may be applicable, why cause disunity and blasphemy against yourself. you dont HAVE to say rabb. another thing is that this points a finger against the 12 imamite shias because they are called (kafir) disbelivers because of a few peoples views and stubborness in calling imam Ali as rabb. anyhow, this is just my view. i thought i'd shed light on that if you dont mind. it wil also help you to increase your knowledge.

I did not say you were saying to us that Allah has partners. I was just explaining with reference to your question. "why is it impossible?" i.e. for imams and Allah to be partners etc...


um I kind off get the drift of your example . but there are no two with reference to Allah as you previously implied. Its good to know other views....no problem anytime

oh yeh and "wonderer" I just realised that the reason Adamant is looking these hadiths rather than the basics is because his interest lies there. secondly everyone has their own style so this is is style, and thirdly he is much older so he might prefer starting elswhere since he has knowldge and a broad mind. ...in comparison to us that is. everyone is different I guess. Im so happy to have these discussions with Adamant..its helping me alot in becoming open-minded and learning other things too.

>>no problem for the crash course

<Laughs>


>>it wil also help you to increase your knowledge.

Appreciated. I disagree with a point you made, but I understand it's a little complicated. <smiles>

What is annoying is the fact that I see some Chiites say things to them like "You are the ones who do shirk and we get killed." These people are trying to safeguard their own lives by telling a lie about the Akhbaris, in the bargain endangering the Akhbaris by false charges of "shirk". This is slandering, hypocrisy and cowardice rolled into one.

>>but there are no two with reference to Allah as you previously implied

Where?

feel free to disagreeeeeeeeeeeee
now I actually would like to know to which point you disagree with if your dont mind.

yes, that is annoying. we have to try to understand their point of view to instead to blasphemising them is saying they are doing shirk. when they actually might not be. this goes for anyone. yep. i agree it is cowardly etc..but if someone asked me about them. I would explain to them they are not kafir. they actually belive this but it just seems that way due to you all not knowing what rabb has the potential to means.

aaah phew. lol if i actualy said this I would have to take a sharp breath to breathe!

when you said, "I am not saying that your Allah has partners". you did not imply this anywhere. you were just asking.

>>now I actually would like to know to which point you disagree with if your dont mind.

This one:

>>Forgive_Me92 to Adamant
>>but why say rabb when other words can be used instead.


>>aaah phew. lol if i actualy said this I would have to take a sharp breath to breathe!

<Laughs>


>>when you said, "I am not saying that your Allah has partners".
>>you did not imply this anywhere. you were just asking.

Oh, okay. That was simply to clarify my stand when you said, "I tell you why its impossible becasue if God has partners..."


And another thing; you earlier said:
>>it wil also help you to increase your knowledge.

As a matter of fact you have helped put into place the last remaining few pieces of a long-standing jigsaw puzzle. Thank you. <smiles>

no problem <smiles>

so what picture has this jigsaw puzzle made then?

My <smiles> is contagious. You are the "second" one. <Laughs>


>>so what picture has this jigsaw puzzle made then?

A spitting image. <smiles>

hahha ..... lol..

I mean seriously..what has become of your collection of your jigsaw pieces. what have you achieved from this thread?

>>I mean seriously..what has become of your collection of your jigsaw pieces.
>>what have you achieved from this thread?

Oh, I didn't mean the entire thread; I was referring to the one paragraph you wrote to shed light and help increase my knowledge. <smiles>

okey dokey.