Hello all,

When i was reading some posts I had a thought: Why do Muslims seem to be more 'hated' than most other faiths?

I talk to lots of people on various topis and I try to learn something from every converstation I've had. One thing I've picked up on is how people in my home town and place where I visit out of town generally (estimated majority of about 65%) seem to think that Islam and those who follow it are violent, rude and hate all of differing faiths and opinions and yet from what little of the Quran I have read and the Muslims I have spoken too it seems like a peace inspiring faith non too different from my own religion.

Is this because of a few extremests in the faith? Or perhaps because it is a 'young' religion and is still 'setting' into the world as Christianity once had too? After all my own Religious histories are littered with death, horrors and sorrors. Maybe it is simply because of media twisting the true to make money, or people resistance to 'change' and 'different'.
I do not know, but I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions.

Assalamu alaikum (Peace be upon you)
Xx

After a lot of soul searching... I have come to some harsh conclusions....

aside from the fact that a lot of Muslims have done a lot of stupid crap (like 9/11, threatening to kill people who insult the Prophet, etc), there is one important thing...

Islamic views and western views are not compatible. At all. Let me also say, neither are true Christian views and western views.

Sorry, it's just the case. In the west the attitude is generally that individuals have freedom of thought, choice, to do as they please, that men and women are equal. Are men and women equal in Islam? No. Sorry. I don't care how it is spun. A woman should be obedient to her husband in Islam. A man has the right to hit her wife in Islam (yes there will be a million responses saying this isn't true but I don't care for debates any longer). Slavery is allowed in Islam. There is a lot of inequality in Islam. Is one way right and the other way wrong? That I won't judge. But Islamic views and western views are very opposite, and people on both sides can not even take a moment to think about what the other side has to say.

NOW... does Islam encourage terrorism? No I don't believe this at all. Islam doesn't say you should kill people if they are not Muslims, etc. That's the funny thing. That's what people pick on in the west and it's not even true. There's plenty of opposing ideals between Islam and the west that people could pick at, but they go for crap that isn't true. Like taqqiya, this is a favorite among Islamophobes, saying things like Muslims go around lying to non-Muslims for this or that. That is a bunch of crap as well. But that isn't to say there isn't a ton of things in Islam that very much oppose the ideals of a free western society.

This comment was not to open debate to say which is better or not. But I can understand the animosity on both sides. In the west people are raised to believe that everyone is equal, that everyone should have th eoption to live as they want, that men are not over women, etc. Islam challenges those ideals. TO a westerner hearing that stoning can be a punishment is sickening. To think that a person can be put to death for leaving Islam is sickening (again, this is not something that happens like Islamophobes make it out to be, it's not like you leave Islam and a hoard of people chase you down and stone you, but it's still there in the hadith). And when you take the religion aside and look at the culture and the governemnts in the Islamic world holy moely... I can see why people get a bad impression. The whole freaking Arab world is up in arms right now because of the amount of oppression and injustice that exists throughout so called Islamic governments. I don't believe these governemnts are Islamic in nature, but can you blame someone who is not a Muslim for seeing all these governemnts call themselves Islamic and then see what they do? I expect here the response saying how terrible western governemnts are as well. That's not what this post is about. this is not to say one is right or wrong. I was saying I understand why the Islamic faith has such a bad image to westerners

Flip it around and see how a run of the mill religious Muslim in the mid east will think of an American who supports gay rights, who smokes and drinks and has premarital sex. Do you think they will think any differently?/ It's all the same crap. The fact is we are talking mentalities on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. I mean completely opposite. That is why there is animosity on both sides. Because both sides think the other ideology is wrong/bad.

Thankyou so much Nazia, what an amazing viewpoint.

I agree with alot of your points, like how Islam is not 'compatable' with western ideals and how even true forms of Cristianity and Judaism arent either. I also really like what you said about how western look to Muslims, I've often wondered about that, how my views would be different from a different perspective.

On what you said about woman I can see your point (I often wonder if womans rights were really a wise thing in the long run) but I, personally, would go so far as hitting a woman. The way I see it is man and woman are 'equally different', i beleive that the two genders are born with different responsibilites. Afterall, only woman can carry, birth and feed a child (naturally as in without using bottles -variable i'm aware) and man is proven to be stronger than woman. Man was also created first and to be in charge of Eden (as I'm taught that is), anyway I digress.
Thankyou.

Assalamu alaikum (Peace be upon you)
Xx

I'm not saying i support this thinking. I'm saying this is what the fundamentals of Islam teaches, regardless of the apologetics you will find on this site.

I'll also add that please don't take the wrong impression from my post. Your average American who dislikes Islam is likely to be a huge hypocrite as Christianity contains almost every element that such person probably dislikes about Islam (Christianity is just as sexist and there is far more violence in the Bible, I mean a crap ton more when in reality there is not much violence at all in the Qur'an and at the very least it is explainable in the Qur'an because the Muslims were being attacked)

It seems like you are on the path to conversion. That's great. It seems like you are in that "place" right now where you think Muslims can do no wrong and the parts of Islam that you see as extreme are isolated to just this tiny minority. You see Muslims being persecuted and that fuels these feelings. You put on some Islamic clothes and that's new and different and a wave of emotions comes over you and it only solidifies it more. That's great. But I beg you to take a long and hard look at Islam and exactly what it teaches before you make the decision to convert. A lot of us who convert do so and then realize there is a whole lot more to Islam than was shown to us at the masjid. For example you say that you think hitting a woman is too far for you. You do realize this is allowed in Islam? You do realize your testimony counts for only half of a man's in Islam? You do realize that in Islam you should 'obey' your husband? I surely was not told any of those things before I converted. Do most Muslims follow these things? No. But many more do than you might realize at first. Do you know what awaits men in paradise? The Qur'an tells a lot about the rewards and lust men will get up there. But do you know what us women get? Neither do I, as there's nothing specific for us. You do realize that even on this site which is pretty damn moderate, I have had debates with people who say that women aren't allowed to leave their homes without their husbands permission?


don't sugarcoat Islam. See it for what it is so you won't have any surprises down the road. Don't just base your information on the sugar coating people give you at masjids and your Muslim friends who are really excited to know you are interested in the religion. Research it yourself from an unbiased perspective before you make any decisions. I would say the same thing to any person who was considering any religion switch. And yes, there will be many people who refute what I say and give nice cookie cutter apologetic responses to everything in this post. I encourage you to read and learn for yourself because just as many people who will say things like "Islam doesn't allow you to hit your wife, that's taken out of context!" there are just as many men who disagree. I'll never forget the first time a Muslim man struck me physically, and then told me I had no right to be angry because Islam allowed it. Oh what a wake up call that was. Don't take my word or anyone else's.

This whole issue of "equality" with the man and woman is completely misunderstood.

A marriage, is supposedly, fair. But is it really? Look at a typical marriage, be it an Islamic or Western one. More than usual, the woman dominates a lot of the aspects of it. Women use emotions to guilt and get what they want, and they do this a lot.

An Islamic law stands that men must take care and provide for their wives. This includes not only materialistic things but also to provide her with happiness. Take this into consideration whenever we talk about a law with a man "appears" to be superior to a woman, then you will realise that in fact, this is not true and simply just an illusion treated by those who are against Islam.

1) A woman must get permission from her husband to leave the house

Of course, this doesnt necessarily mean she must ring up her husband at work to ask whether or not she can go to the market to buy milk. This is more a general law, that a woman must ask permission from her husband in order to be able to go places. But taking into consideration the first law given to men, does not the same apply? Surely if a man just leaves the house without a whisper to where he is going, then it go against him pleasing his wife.

If a wife decides to leave the house at 12 at night to go take a walk in the park, then the husband is justified in not letting her.

2) Hitting your wives

This is permitted, on the condition that it does not cause damage to her nor does it cause her a lot of physical pain. This is done on a last resort, if all else fails. To hit a wife isnt for the pain but rather a statement a man makes.

3) A womans testimony is half of a mans

Some argue this isnt true, I have only read a little about this so I will not comment.

Everything that a man does (with regards to his wife) must take into consideration the feelings and happiness of her, and what is good for her. Will me, hitting my wife because she upset me, be good for her? Will it make her happy? If not, then to do so would be a crime.

People tend to forget the obligations pressed upon men when they talk about these topics. A woman is far more difficult to please than a man is. I would argue that in fact, we have the harder task.

I really want to thank you Killed Bill for not sugar coating things in apologetics like many people do to individuals who appear eager to convert.





I really need not go further to point out that this is exactly what I am talking about that shows the completely opposing nature of western vs. Islamic thought.







How could you argue this isn't true when it's state explicitly in the Qur'an?





I disagree. I think the stereotypical image you have been presented of how women are is more difficult to please than a man. This is the problem with cultural/social segregation among genders. People do not understand how the other side thinks/feels/acts. They base what they know about the other side on stories, movies, anecdotes, assumptions. For example, that ridiculous story about the woman wanting to divorce her husband because he's not romantic like in movies, without ever even speaking one word to him about it, is so far fetched and hyperboled and unrealistic. Just as the stereotypical image of a guy who thinks only about sex and money and working out and belching and football and energy drinks and has not one single emotion and punches his friends if they get too close is stupid and illogical and unrealistic


I am not downing your post at all. In fact it's a breath of fresh air to see someone actually give straight and honest answers. OP, I do hope you consider things in here. This is a good example of the Islamic way of thinking. I'm not saying one is right or wrong, I'm saying this is what it is. If you still go into it realizing this, all the power to you. But consider first.

Please consider this exact statement:



Before you decide to convert to Islam

I find what you each have to say interesting.

I'm not on the path to conversion, just looking to understand and learn more about the world, the people it in and their views and I, personally, try to listen to all views weather I agree with them or not.

My own opinions are very strong and dont vary at the core: I do beleive that God created man and woman with different responsibilties but with equaly rights of respect and treatment. Woman and man are equal but have different God given abilites (ofcourse there are exceptions to every rule).
Personally, no matter my faith, under no exceptions would I ever condown physical viloence, Jesus never hit woman, he was kind, polite and respectful to them as he was to is male desiples.

Thankyou both of your views, I'm learning so very much

Assalamu alaikum (Peace be upon you)
Xx

I swear this is not an insult at your faith. I really liked your view that you would never condone striking another person. i completely agree with you on it. I am just curious about your take on this specific Bible verse:

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" (1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV).

First, thankyou for the question, there is no offence taken at all

Right, to my answer, please accept that this answer is purely my own personal understanding and based on not fact.

Firtly Corinthians was not writen directly abou the life of Christ which is what Christians follow, it's by my understanding, one of the acompaniny texts that was releivent to the day.

Then take into account the social and spiritual differences of the day. In thoses days men and woman never conversed outside of the house, let alone in a church, the males and females were segrigated in the sinagoues (sorry, i cant spell, i cant spelling that phonically lol) so the couldnt talk even should they desire too.
Take for example the time that Christ assisted a prostitue from death by stoning because those who would hurt had had no right to judge her, only God that the right to judge those who have sinned as only he knows the true extent of sin.

The main thing I would like to say is that for every quote of the bible that one may see evidence for one thing, somewhere will be a quote to contradict it. for example the following quote (read on its own) could be argued for womans equality:

1 Con 11:11-12 "Nevertheless niether is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman was is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God"

Assalamu alaikum (Peace be upon you)
Xx

I think most, even with western standards, would agree with me on that.



Because the Quran mentions this again around 3-4 other times, in which it doesnt refer to women at all but rather says "The testimony of one believer/Muslim".



What I said was from my own experiences. And by the likes of it, a lot of guys experiences seem to be very similar. Odd huh?

A woman, by nature, is more fragile and emotional. It is harder to hurt a womans feelings than a mans.



Or consider this

"Support your wives and be kind to them"

Like I said, most arguments against women come from those who are not taking in the full picture. You ignore the mens responsibilities, then you are left with the womans only. And then, of course, it seems unfair does it not?

In the western world, women like to think they should be treated the same as a man, but they do not see their own double standards in this.

And with regards to striking, it isnt encouraged, in fact, it clearly states that it must be the last resort. A bit like divorce. Nazia, would you not allow for a woman to be hit (not severely of course) in order to possibly save her relationship? Her marriage? Her family? At times, this does work, and God only knows how many marriages I know that this would work in.

The concept of controlling the actions of your partner, man or woman, in the west, is not looked upon well. You don't "allow" your partner to leave the house. If I want to go for a walk at midnight, I don't need someone to tell me if I can or I can't. I'm a grown adult who can make my own decisions. Neither would I restrict that right on another person. That is seen as very controlling in the west.



Dude, how can you deny this?


Qur'an (2:282) - "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."


Even if there are ayat later in the QUr'an that talk about believers and non-believers, does it negate this passage?





Can you not understand the fact that not every single person is the same? This is what I began to dislike about Islam long ago. It says "this is the general case and it applies to everyone because no one is an individual". Not every person is the same. I know plenty of couples where the man is far more emotionally weak than the woman. And i know couples in the reverse. I am pretty damn easy to please, and I have known men who are impossible to please and have impossible standards. So your line that it is easier to please a man than a woman I"m sorry but that's BS. It doesn't even correlate with "it's easier to hurt a woman's feelings"





No. No. No times a million. And you would be hard pressed to find that attitude existing among most westerners. I am not judging you for your opinion. I was only pointing out the fact that Islamic and western thinking just have very little compatibility, and this is an example here.

Killed Bill, if you think it's better for a woman to be hit than loose her relationship, what about the reverse? Should a woman be able to hit a man in order to save the relationship? What if the woman is the bread winner? What if the man becomes disabled and can't work and is weaker physically? Does Islam grant her control to be the head of the house and be the controlling partner and the husband must be obedient to her? And if he's not, does she have the right to hit him? But what if it saves their relationship? Honest questions

My negative views about Islam come mainly from fairly lenghty discussions with devout Muslim males (more or less educated but no theologians, all of them Arabs educated in the Mid-East or North Africa).
They also come from getting to know people whose community is persecuted by Muslims on religious grounds.
I am very skeptical of most people's information sources from TV to academia so I don't think my views come from the media.
The bottom line is that I was shocked by what a few Muslims told me about their beliefs. I don't think I would have believed it if I had read about it in a book or something. I can read the Qu'ran in translation for myself but I would read it in the same way I read the Bible for instance. It's something else to have a believer translate passages to you and tell you face to face how they interpret them. I've never talked with a Christian who reads the Bible that way. I can intellectually understand why but, as much as I expected it, it was still an unsettling experience for me.
I'm thankful for these discussions because I believed they helped me understand better what I stand for.

I agree that there are fundamental difference between Muslim and "Western" thought but I'm not sure that's the main problem for me.
Like Nazia, I'm appalled by misogyny. But there's lots of misogyny as well in "the West", in India, in Africa or in Japan. So I don't want to blame Islam for this. But, in my mind, Islam is a problem because it's fundamentally so conservative. Muslim attitudes remind me of the kind of attitudes you could find in "the West" some time ago.
And that's the most scary thing for me. I know what "the West" is capable of. I can crack a history book. I can watch and listen to recordings from the thirties and fourties. I can listen to the the testimony of my elders (although most of them have passed away now). And I know from what happend in Armenia that Muslims are no better than the rest of us. It is annonying enough to talk to "Westerners" who seem to have learned nothing from all this. But the scariest conversation I've had were with hate-filled Muslims. I know all Muslims are not like this and I know there's plenty of hate outside of Islam but I fear mainstream Islamic doctrine is a serious obstacle to progress.

To add to that most recent post, I also want to clarify that I was not saying only Islam and western ideologies don't mix well. It's generally an issue of eastern and western ideologies. At least that's my impression after growing up/living in various Asian communities throughout my life, especially southeast Asian cultures. There is so much misogyny in southeast Asia

But mszad, what exact parts of the Qur'an have bothered you?/ Just out of curiosity. I feel like most things which are incompatible with MODERN western views come from hadith and not Qur'an

And Killed Bill, I'd still love a response to this question:

I don't know how specific I can be without offending some people so I'll try to strike a balance. My memory is also far from perfect and I'm talking about things which happened many years ago.
What bothered me most were not the passages from the Qur'an as such (there are some awful things in other religious texts obviously) but the way in which the Muslims I discussed these things with related to the Qur'an. I understood how the Bible was different from the Qur'an in terms of composition and I knew theoretically how fundamentalists realted to the Qur'an. But it's something else to see it in person. It was scary but also beautiful and powerful in a way. A part of myself was yearning to be like them, secure in their beliefs.
They were radically opposed to interpreting rationally what they were reading. I know not all Muslims are like this but I don't think it's something you can so easily refuse to do with scripture in most religions because it tends to be too obviously incoherent and allegorical. The translation issues tend to be obvious as well. My concern is that by refusing to acknowledge an interpretation is needed, you risk confusing your implicit interpretations with the text.
I don't think the disturbing things they said about Jews, Hindus or women for instance were supported by the Qur'an. But they still managed to use it to justify their views. They reasoned by analogy from things which I think (and I do not want to push this belief on anyone) are in the Qur'an not because they're essential but because it was written so long ago.
It seemed like violence and segregation was the right solution to every problem in their eyes because it is an answer to some problems according to the Qur'an. And it seemed they were comfortable with double standards in general because the Qur'an has some double standards.
I have not read the whole Qu'ran but the thing that I found the most disturbing perhaps was how judgemental some stories are (like one story about a stoning you may have been referring to earlier but it's not the punishment as such which disturbed me the most). I belive "black and white" thinking is dangerous. And I believe the Islamic teaching about Shaitan in particular are very dangerous. Maybe that's because I know how damaging they can be from the effect they have had on Christians who believe much of these teachings even though they're not supported by the Bible.

Yes. If it is on the same level as a man hitting a wife (not abuse). A lot of women hit their husbands, obviously not on a daily basis and not something which we would consider abuse, but it happens. No one goes around saying that that is such an awful act.

With regards to the other question, no. The women will never be the "head" of the house in that sense, whether or not it is her supporting the family. That is my view, I do not have any confirmation of its truthfulness.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, Killed. Why would it not be abuse if a man is routinely hurt by his wife?
This was on the first page of Google results:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1076854.ece

Where do you get that this is Islamically justified? Because people do it?




Yes and I too consider that wrong and despicable. I find no place for violence in what is to be a loving relationship. If a relationship is so far out of control that spouses must hit each other, there is no reason for that relationship to continue




This is the part that makes no sense, and another thing which is just drastically not in line with western ideology. When I ask the imam why is the man the head of the house hold I am told because he is stronger physically, etc. etc. So when the situation is reversed and that is no longer the case, he is still the head? The woman can never achieve this? Even if she is the sole caregiver, the provider, the one who is physically stronger? She can never make orders that he must follow, but even if she is doing all of the work, she is still underneath him? I'm sorry but,, why? What is the point of that?

It is abuse. You misunderstood my post.



Divorce is frowned upon, and this is usually never the case therefore there isnt much material on it. But I doubt it would be haram to do so if it saves a marriage.



It is usually out of anger or frustration. It happens to all relationships, find me one couple who havent been mad at one another. It is normal, and a woman hitting a man isnt so "despicable". No one thinks it is.

But when the tables are turned... well then thats where people pounce. Western ideals eh?



I may be way off in this, I admit, I probably dont know enough to make any correct judgment but I will give at least my view.

1) Most men wont like to think that their wives are the "head" of the household
2) It is, even still, not a position to be wanted in society. A man wouldnt feel like one if he was to tell people that he listens and does every little thing his wife orders him to do so
3) Decisions are not to be absurd, they need to be discussed with the couple.

The problem I have is when you said "she is still underneath him". That is far from the truth, and clearly you only even attempt to put it that way because you seem to refuse to see it from a mans perspective. That seems to be the problem, you only see this with regards to you being a woman. Not that I can blame you for that, but look at it objectively if you want to understand it.

They say that a man is the head of the house, but the woman is the neck.

I think you are out of touch with true western ideology. Abuse is abuse, and anyone who subscribes to a true ideology of equality between sexes will tell you that. Does violence against men happen on the same level as violence against women? No, one only needs to look at statistics and power in societies. But is abuse against a man any less unjust than abuse towards a woman? No. Abuse is terrible.






OK, so you can understand this. Why do you think it is that 1 and 2 are true? Look at what you wrote for #2. Why do you think this is? Why won't the man enjoy this? Because he will feel embarassed, shamed, that he will feel less independent? The question I have for you is why do you think this reaction would only be felt by men? Why don't think this that this might be a human reaction, and that a woman would feel the same way? You said in 2 that this is not a position to be wanted in society. Do you think that ever might be the case for a woman as well? Why would a woman want to feel this? Why would she want to feel that even as an adult, that she must do every little thing her husband wants her to do?

You say in #3 that decisions must not be absurd, but agreed upon. But the last word still comes down to the husband does it not? This is all I am getting at. You say this is equality and that I am wrong in saying the woman is beneath the man. But everything you are saying is to the contrary. You give the analogy of the head and the neck. is the neck not beneath the head? How would you feel if you were in a situation where your partner was the head, but you were the neck? Please tell me how this would make you feel, if you were put in a position where you were told "you must do what your spouse says, but ultimately it is an agreement between you to, even though she has the last word." Tell me how this would make you feel, and then please understand that this same feeling will come to a woman as well

I definitely don't understand your argument, Killed.
If you agree that when a woman hurts her husband it is abuse, why are you saying for the second time that "no one" thinks it's wrong? I didn't want to contradict you too forcefully the first time but I provided a link to show you are mistaken. Obviously I think it's despicable for a woman to hit her husband. Why would it not be?
Is it a matter of degree for you? Maybe you think it's not acceptable to hurt someone routinetly but it's alright to attack one's spouse occasionally as long as no one ends up in the hospital or something. Apparently you understand that there are lots of people who don't think it's alright for males to hit their wives, whatever the circumstance. Let me tell you that there are also lots of people who don't think it's alright when it's the wife who's being violent. Please don't go on repeating falsehoods. It's not healthy. Investigate for yourself if you don't accept my word on the matter.
There is a different standard when judging violence committed by males and females. Females are forgiven more easily. You didn't imagine that. That's because, statistically, males tend to be the perpetrators and females the victims. But it doesn't go so far as you seem to believe. There are people who want equal treatment for males and females and people who want females to be treated with more leniency. But being lenient is not condoning. In "the West", sexual abuse is more scandalous when the victim is a child for instance. But that doesn't make raping adults acceptable!