The Bible explained that Satan (Lucifer) used to be God's #1 arch-angel
... before his pride caused him to rebel against God,
and he deceived 1/3 of God's angels into following him.
This is what the war in Heaven was all about.
So, it's easy to accept what the Bible explains in MANY verses:
Satan is a super-intelligent liar and deceiver!
The Bible warned that "Satan transforms himself into an angel of light".
It warned against "an angel from heaven" who preaches another gospel.
It gave instructions on how to TEST "angels" to see if they are from God or from Satan. (See below).
It also gave a lot of WARNINGS about false prophets, false teachers, false gospels, etc.
Guess what, folks? God intended for EVERYONE to take all of these warnings seriously!
600 years later … an "angel" who called itself "Gabriel" appeared to Mohammed.
It was NOT tested at all for any kind of authenticity!
Much of what this "angel" said is opposed to what the Bible says.
Comparing God of the Bible with Allah of the Qur'an, they're NOT the same.
An obvious conclusion would be: this false "angel" deceived Mohammed!
This would have been extremely easy to do ... because ...
Historically, man has always been a spiritual moron.
Another "angel" called "Moroni" deceived Joseph Smith resulting in Mormonism.
How many false "angels" and false prophets shall we accept as being from God?
Side note: Since Satan is such an incredible liar and deceiver,
he surely would have been clever enough to mix truth with lies!
If he was the source of the Qur'an, you can bet that he did this.
The Christian TEST for false spirits, false angels, false prophets, false teachers, etc.
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
Everyone knows the "man" Jesus Christ was born into the world.
Don't forget, this TEST was written to Christians.
This TEST is talking about God being born into the world.
"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14).
"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel",
which is translated, 'God (is) with us'." (Matthew 1:23).
"... that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory" (John 1:14).
"The Word was God" (John 1:1).
How do you think Gabriel would have done with this TEST?
Full Version: The Source Of Quran Is In Great Doubt
You judge a claim by its proofs.
Proofs fall into two groups
1. miracles
2. the followers of the claimant(in this case prophet)
You don't judge it based on privious highly disputed scripture.
Proofs fall into two groups
1. miracles
2. the followers of the claimant(in this case prophet)
You don't judge it based on privious highly disputed scripture.
QUOTE(Philip @ Apr 25 2011, 02:16 AM) 
You judge a claim by its proofs.
Proofs fall into two groups
1. miracles
2. the followers of the claimant (in this case prophet)
You don't judge it based on privious highly disputed scripture.
Proofs fall into two groups
1. miracles
2. the followers of the claimant (in this case prophet)
You don't judge it based on privious highly disputed scripture.
Re: your 1.
Millions of miracles done "in the name of Jesus" takes care of your "miracles" part.
These are done through the mighty spiritual power of the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.
If you wish to say they are done by Satan, you risk committing the unpardonable sin.
Jesus says, "Find fault with Me all you want, but you better not find fault with the Holy Spirit."
Re: your 2.
This is utter and complete nonsense.
Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Millions of people have been deceived into believing in utter and complete nonsense.
Latest example: extreme Muslim terrorists.
Note:
the God of the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER said to evangelise the world by killing ANYBODY.
This is just ANOTHER PROOF that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. Hello!
If you insist on going with a different "god", that's your choice.
Re: your "judge"
Of course, anyone can dispute any ancient writings.
Muslims dispute anything and everything that doesn't agree with the Quran.
Good luck, is all I can say to them. Good luck.
P.S. -- A question for all Muslims to consider carefully:
If "Gabriel", "Allah", and Mohammed (a real living entity) thought there had been Bible tahrif,
they surely would have screamed WARNINGS from the roof-tops, but alas, they did no such thing.
They could have WARNED:
"One Bible teaches there is only one God, but another Bible teaches a Trinity of Gods.
Sorry, a few little comments about scribes writing some non-biblical stuff for their own gain doesn't qualify.
All kinds of people mis-quote Scripture all the time.
This Bible tahrif mis-conception is of extreme importance.
QUOTE
Millions of miracles done "in the name of Jesus" takes care of your "miracles" part.
These are done through the mighty spiritual power of the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.
If you wish to say they are done by Satan, you risk committing the unpardonable sin.
Jesus says, "Find fault with Me all you want, but you better not find fault with the Holy Spirit."
These are done through the mighty spiritual power of the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.
If you wish to say they are done by Satan, you risk committing the unpardonable sin.
Jesus says, "Find fault with Me all you want, but you better not find fault with the Holy Spirit."
The miracles spoke to you and told you why they were doing...miraculous stuff?
QUOTE
This is utter and complete nonsense.
Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Millions of people have been deceived into believing in utter and complete nonsense.
Latest example: extreme Muslim terrorists.
Note:
the God of the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER said to evangelise the world by killing ANYBODY.
This is just ANOTHER PROOF that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. Hello!
If you insist on going with a different "god", that's your choice.
Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Millions of people have been deceived into believing in utter and complete nonsense.
Latest example: extreme Muslim terrorists.
Note:
the God of the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER said to evangelise the world by killing ANYBODY.
This is just ANOTHER PROOF that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. Hello!
If you insist on going with a different "god", that's your choice.
"I came not to bring peace but to bring the sword"
Sounds violent to me.
And personally I'd rather judge people's claims by how people act.
Christians say "love thy neighbour" then they proceed to convert a continent (or 4) at the sword. To me that screams "not quite right".
Bismillahhir Rahmanir Rahim
May Allah forgive me if I make any sincere mistakes in my effort to explain and clarify the truth and authenticity of the Holy Quran.
I'm afraid you are not going to get much out of this discussion if you are going to project that kind of attitude in defense of Bible scriptures which we all know have been altered and changed over time (as agreed by numerous Christian Scholars themselves) Assuming you are willing to use your logic and reason in an unbiased manner after what I just informed you of, lets proceed.
First things first. You need to understand the sources you are referring to and how they have evolved over time. The Bible you read was not written in English. The English language did not exist 2011 years ago. One can certainly imagine the amount of interpretations that may have been lost in translation itself let alone what has been inserted and/or taken out. Here's a bit of home work for you. Go find out how many different types of Bibles there are out there. Count them and come and tell us. Then go ask a simple sample population of lets say 50 Christians/Roman Catholics/Protestants/Other Christian divisions on the street which Bible they think is correct (obviously all of them cant be correct, or there wouldn't be a need for different Bibles. You don't have to tell us the answer. Just let it sincerely sink into you heart and use your logic to step outside the box.
Here's a simple and short video if you are too impatient to read what I just explained - Bible in its Original Form
The Bible explained that Satan (Lucifer) used to be God's #1 arch-angel
before his pride caused him to rebel against God, and he deceived 1/3 of God's angels into following him. This is what the war in Heaven was all about. So, it's easy to accept what the Bible explains in MANY verses: Satan is a super-intelligent liar and deceiver.
As explained In the Quran, Satan is not an Angel therefore he is not able to ever be an Arch Angel. If you didn't know, Angels were created by Allah (God) for one purpose. That was to ONLY obey God. Angels therefore don't have a free will to be deceived OR to decide whether to do an act of goodness or evil. They do what God says. Simple as that.
Satan on the other hand is from the Jinn who do have a conscience just as humans do, to decide whether to do an act of good or evil. On this note,
The Quran says - "He created man from clay like [that of] pottery and He created the Jinn from a smokeless flame of fire" (Quran 55:14-15)
Satan, being from the race of the Jinn was indeed a devoted servant of Allah (God). He did attain quite a high status and was brought close with the Angels. Allah obviously knew Satan's intentions. Once Allah created man, he commanded all the Angels to prostrate to the Adam. Satan considered himself to be more superior than Adam since Jinns were created from smokeless fire and man was created from clay. For this reason, Satan refused Allah's direct command. Allah then cursed Satan to the Lake of Fire for Eternity but gave Satan until the day of recompense at his request. Satan obtained permission from Allah and vowed that he would use his time to lead all men and women astray to the Lake of Fire. Allah then granted Satan this request but warned him that it would in no way have authority over Allah's sincere and devoted servants.
The Bible warned that "Satan transforms himself into an angel of light".
It warned against "an angel from heaven" who preaches another gospel. It gave instructions on how to TEST "angels" to see if they are from God or from Satan. (See below). It also gave a lot of WARNINGS about false prophets, false teachers, false gospels, etc. Guess what, folks? God intended for EVERYONE to take all of these warnings seriously!
As I mentioned to you above, Angels do as they are told by God. Nothing else. The Holy Quran itself is enough proof that it is indeed the verbatim word of God no doubt. If you are not sure, why don't you pick it up and read it? Seriously? You will see that which is of no doubt that it has got to be from God himself. Your post wouldn't exist in the first place if you had already read what the Quran says. Surely, Satan cannot come close to Gods wisdom and revelation as described in the Quran. Perhaps you might want to find out who Paul really was before he suddenly had an epiphany to drop all his killer habits and compile the new testament prior to his Hit man profession of killing Christian saints. That is some troubling level of trust you put on divine scripture that a person with such a dark history took the authority to write. Think about it. Seriously.
600 years later … an "angel" who called itself "Gabriel" appeared to Mohammed.
It was NOT tested at all for any kind of authenticity! Much of what this "angel" said is opposed to what the Bible says.
Dear friend, here's the ultimate test, Read the Holy Quran. That is your litmus test. You'll know the authenticity of the Arch Angel Gabriel and the message he delivered from Allah to the final prophet of mankind Mohammed (pbuh) when you read it. I also suggest that you learn about the Night Journey and the Ascension of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who was personally accompanied by the Arch Angel Gabriel himself. During the Night Journey, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) traveled to Jerusalem and lead a prayer which included ALL of God's long deceased prophets from Adam to Jesus (pbuh). The Ascension was the Prophet's journey through the 7 heavens along with the Angel Gabriel. Still want to question the authenticity of Gabriel?
Much of all the opposed points you claim were marginally added, edited, and/or removed by many scribes. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have to have different testaments and many different versions of the Bible.
Comparing God of the Bible with Allah of the Qur'an, they're NOT the same.
An obvious conclusion would be: this false "angel" deceived Mohammed! This would have been extremely easy to do ... because ... Historically, man has always been a spiritual moron.
How exactly do you say you know? How do you plan on substantiating your claim? Here's quick bit of research for you. Go take a look at what God was called in Aramaic (The language Jesus (pbuh) spoke before the English language was invented, incase you didn't know)
I'm not going to waste any time explaining how a "false Angel" could have appeared as Gabriel with the final revelation from God almighty during a period of 23 years. The content in the Quran is by far, more than enough evidence to disprove your 'sponge bat' of a claim.
God almighty wouldn't have chosen a 'Moron' to do the most important job of being his final messenger to ALL of mankind. Think about that carefully before you make such weak claims. You may want to go re-check your Aramaic Gospels for all the places that the coming of the Final prophet was mentioned. Not only that, pay attention to the profile of that Final prophet. In fact, if you look into Aramaic Biblical texts the word "Paraclete" means the "Praised One". Do you want to take a wild guess at what the "Praised One" is called in Arabic? Yes, that would be Mohammed. I suggest you pick up an authentic biography of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and understand his character so that you may see the clear distinction on your own.
Another "angel" called "Moroni" deceived Joseph Smith resulting in Mormonism. How many false "angels" and false prophets shall we accept as being from God?
Joseph Smith did not even come close to the profile of God's Final prophet which is mentioned in various places in the Bible. Look up those characteristics. Your argument again has no sincerity.
Side note: Since Satan is such an incredible liar and deceiver, he surely would have been clever enough to mix truth with lies! If he was the source of the Qur'an, you can bet that he did this.
Read the Holy Quran with an unbiased and sincere heart. It will not take you long before you notice and realize that the content IS the absolute truth (the final seal) from God and is far superior to be labeled as Satan's incredibly deceptive work. One can only imagine who then has been deceived and mislead in this case.
The Christian TEST for false spirits, false angels, false prophets, false teachers, etc.
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
Everyone knows the "man" Jesus Christ was born into the world.
Don't forget, this TEST was written to Christians.
This TEST is talking about God being born into the world.
No, obviously the test is talking about he who confesses that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was born into this world as flesh, is "OF" God, NOT God being born into this world as flesh. (Jesus came to inform us about God, therefore he is not God. If he was God he would have Clearly said I am God, worship me in the Bible. Therefore Jesus Christ (pbuh) was only a prophet of God)
"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14).
"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel",
which is translated, 'God (is) with us'." (Matthew 1:23).
"... that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory" (John 1:14).
"The Word was God" (John 1:1).
The authenticity of Biblical scriptures after human manipulation, insertions and/or deletions is obviously the matter of serious concern.
How do you think Gabriel would have done with this TEST?
Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot. Millions of people have been deceived into believing in utter and complete nonsense.
(Yes that seems to be the case, even after God's FINAL revelation arrived 1400 years ago)
Latest example: extreme Muslim terrorists. (Come on.. honestly? I don't see the need to stoop down to that level and give you examples of people who have done similar if not worse things in the name of Christ. We all know that terrorism is not what the prophets preached. Its not rocket science)
Note:
the God of the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER said to evangelise the world by killing ANYBODY. This is just another PROOF that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. Hello! (Is it me you're looking for?...)
On a serious note - Again, I wont for your sake, stoop down to a level where historical events need to be listed. Your "PROOF" has absolutely no validity whatsoever.
Re: your "judge"
Of course, anyone can dispute any ancient writings. Muslims dispute anything and everything that doesn't agree with the Quran.
Good luck, is all I can say to them. Good luck. (Everything that is of the Abrahamic scriptures that do not fall in line with God's FINAL revelation has obviously been altered and tampered by man. There is absolutely no possible way you can deny that fact because numerous Christian Pastors, Bible Scholars and religious academics have admitted this to be the case and there is authentic evidence. And you're talking about luck?
P.S. -- A question for all Muslims to consider carefully:
If "Gabriel", "Allah", and Mohammed (a real living entity) thought there had been Bible tahrif,
they surely would have screamed WARNINGS from the roof-tops, but alas, they did no such thing. Sorry, a few little comments about scribes writing some non-biblical stuff for their own gain doesn't qualify.
Again, a weak attempt to with no basis to justify your own point. Read the Quran. Hopefully you will be informed about the Tahrif that Islam has been pointing out for the last 1400 years.
Additional Notes -
There's a whole array of Quranic miracles that dive into Science, linguistics and many other aspects which prove that it surely could not have come from Satan but God alone. ALL of it is in the Holy Quran. Certainly we shouldn't give you more to digest than you can bite (in the form of examples). So lets start slow.
You my friend, need to go and sincerely, I repeat, sincerely open your heart and find out What the Holy Quran is. That is going to take some time and effort. If you need help, please don't hesitate to ask.
You can start here - http://quran.com/ (That's the Quran in Arabic form with translations in English)
Or here - http://quranicaudio.com/quran/58 (That's the audio Quran recited in it's verbatim Arabic form and translated in English)
May Allah (God Almighty) guide you
May Allah forgive me if I make any sincere mistakes in my effort to explain and clarify the truth and authenticity of the Holy Quran.
I'm afraid you are not going to get much out of this discussion if you are going to project that kind of attitude in defense of Bible scriptures which we all know have been altered and changed over time (as agreed by numerous Christian Scholars themselves) Assuming you are willing to use your logic and reason in an unbiased manner after what I just informed you of, lets proceed.
First things first. You need to understand the sources you are referring to and how they have evolved over time. The Bible you read was not written in English. The English language did not exist 2011 years ago. One can certainly imagine the amount of interpretations that may have been lost in translation itself let alone what has been inserted and/or taken out. Here's a bit of home work for you. Go find out how many different types of Bibles there are out there. Count them and come and tell us. Then go ask a simple sample population of lets say 50 Christians/Roman Catholics/Protestants/Other Christian divisions on the street which Bible they think is correct (obviously all of them cant be correct, or there wouldn't be a need for different Bibles. You don't have to tell us the answer. Just let it sincerely sink into you heart and use your logic to step outside the box.
Here's a simple and short video if you are too impatient to read what I just explained - Bible in its Original Form
The Bible explained that Satan (Lucifer) used to be God's #1 arch-angel
before his pride caused him to rebel against God, and he deceived 1/3 of God's angels into following him. This is what the war in Heaven was all about. So, it's easy to accept what the Bible explains in MANY verses: Satan is a super-intelligent liar and deceiver.
As explained In the Quran, Satan is not an Angel therefore he is not able to ever be an Arch Angel. If you didn't know, Angels were created by Allah (God) for one purpose. That was to ONLY obey God. Angels therefore don't have a free will to be deceived OR to decide whether to do an act of goodness or evil. They do what God says. Simple as that.
Satan on the other hand is from the Jinn who do have a conscience just as humans do, to decide whether to do an act of good or evil. On this note,
The Quran says - "He created man from clay like [that of] pottery and He created the Jinn from a smokeless flame of fire" (Quran 55:14-15)
Satan, being from the race of the Jinn was indeed a devoted servant of Allah (God). He did attain quite a high status and was brought close with the Angels. Allah obviously knew Satan's intentions. Once Allah created man, he commanded all the Angels to prostrate to the Adam. Satan considered himself to be more superior than Adam since Jinns were created from smokeless fire and man was created from clay. For this reason, Satan refused Allah's direct command. Allah then cursed Satan to the Lake of Fire for Eternity but gave Satan until the day of recompense at his request. Satan obtained permission from Allah and vowed that he would use his time to lead all men and women astray to the Lake of Fire. Allah then granted Satan this request but warned him that it would in no way have authority over Allah's sincere and devoted servants.
The Bible warned that "Satan transforms himself into an angel of light".
It warned against "an angel from heaven" who preaches another gospel. It gave instructions on how to TEST "angels" to see if they are from God or from Satan. (See below). It also gave a lot of WARNINGS about false prophets, false teachers, false gospels, etc. Guess what, folks? God intended for EVERYONE to take all of these warnings seriously!
As I mentioned to you above, Angels do as they are told by God. Nothing else. The Holy Quran itself is enough proof that it is indeed the verbatim word of God no doubt. If you are not sure, why don't you pick it up and read it? Seriously? You will see that which is of no doubt that it has got to be from God himself. Your post wouldn't exist in the first place if you had already read what the Quran says. Surely, Satan cannot come close to Gods wisdom and revelation as described in the Quran. Perhaps you might want to find out who Paul really was before he suddenly had an epiphany to drop all his killer habits and compile the new testament prior to his Hit man profession of killing Christian saints. That is some troubling level of trust you put on divine scripture that a person with such a dark history took the authority to write. Think about it. Seriously.
600 years later … an "angel" who called itself "Gabriel" appeared to Mohammed.
It was NOT tested at all for any kind of authenticity! Much of what this "angel" said is opposed to what the Bible says.
Dear friend, here's the ultimate test, Read the Holy Quran. That is your litmus test. You'll know the authenticity of the Arch Angel Gabriel and the message he delivered from Allah to the final prophet of mankind Mohammed (pbuh) when you read it. I also suggest that you learn about the Night Journey and the Ascension of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who was personally accompanied by the Arch Angel Gabriel himself. During the Night Journey, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) traveled to Jerusalem and lead a prayer which included ALL of God's long deceased prophets from Adam to Jesus (pbuh). The Ascension was the Prophet's journey through the 7 heavens along with the Angel Gabriel. Still want to question the authenticity of Gabriel?
Much of all the opposed points you claim were marginally added, edited, and/or removed by many scribes. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have to have different testaments and many different versions of the Bible.
Comparing God of the Bible with Allah of the Qur'an, they're NOT the same.
An obvious conclusion would be: this false "angel" deceived Mohammed! This would have been extremely easy to do ... because ... Historically, man has always been a spiritual moron.
How exactly do you say you know? How do you plan on substantiating your claim? Here's quick bit of research for you. Go take a look at what God was called in Aramaic (The language Jesus (pbuh) spoke before the English language was invented, incase you didn't know)
I'm not going to waste any time explaining how a "false Angel" could have appeared as Gabriel with the final revelation from God almighty during a period of 23 years. The content in the Quran is by far, more than enough evidence to disprove your 'sponge bat' of a claim.
God almighty wouldn't have chosen a 'Moron' to do the most important job of being his final messenger to ALL of mankind. Think about that carefully before you make such weak claims. You may want to go re-check your Aramaic Gospels for all the places that the coming of the Final prophet was mentioned. Not only that, pay attention to the profile of that Final prophet. In fact, if you look into Aramaic Biblical texts the word "Paraclete" means the "Praised One". Do you want to take a wild guess at what the "Praised One" is called in Arabic? Yes, that would be Mohammed. I suggest you pick up an authentic biography of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and understand his character so that you may see the clear distinction on your own.
Another "angel" called "Moroni" deceived Joseph Smith resulting in Mormonism. How many false "angels" and false prophets shall we accept as being from God?
Joseph Smith did not even come close to the profile of God's Final prophet which is mentioned in various places in the Bible. Look up those characteristics. Your argument again has no sincerity.
Side note: Since Satan is such an incredible liar and deceiver, he surely would have been clever enough to mix truth with lies! If he was the source of the Qur'an, you can bet that he did this.
Read the Holy Quran with an unbiased and sincere heart. It will not take you long before you notice and realize that the content IS the absolute truth (the final seal) from God and is far superior to be labeled as Satan's incredibly deceptive work. One can only imagine who then has been deceived and mislead in this case.
The Christian TEST for false spirits, false angels, false prophets, false teachers, etc.
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
Everyone knows the "man" Jesus Christ was born into the world.
Don't forget, this TEST was written to Christians.
This TEST is talking about God being born into the world.
No, obviously the test is talking about he who confesses that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was born into this world as flesh, is "OF" God, NOT God being born into this world as flesh. (Jesus came to inform us about God, therefore he is not God. If he was God he would have Clearly said I am God, worship me in the Bible. Therefore Jesus Christ (pbuh) was only a prophet of God)
"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14).
"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel",
which is translated, 'God (is) with us'." (Matthew 1:23).
"... that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory" (John 1:14).
"The Word was God" (John 1:1).
The authenticity of Biblical scriptures after human manipulation, insertions and/or deletions is obviously the matter of serious concern.
How do you think Gabriel would have done with this TEST?
Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot. Millions of people have been deceived into believing in utter and complete nonsense.
(Yes that seems to be the case, even after God's FINAL revelation arrived 1400 years ago)
Latest example: extreme Muslim terrorists. (Come on.. honestly? I don't see the need to stoop down to that level and give you examples of people who have done similar if not worse things in the name of Christ. We all know that terrorism is not what the prophets preached. Its not rocket science)
Note:
the God of the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER said to evangelise the world by killing ANYBODY. This is just another PROOF that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. Hello! (Is it me you're looking for?...)
On a serious note - Again, I wont for your sake, stoop down to a level where historical events need to be listed. Your "PROOF" has absolutely no validity whatsoever.
Re: your "judge"
Of course, anyone can dispute any ancient writings. Muslims dispute anything and everything that doesn't agree with the Quran.
Good luck, is all I can say to them. Good luck. (Everything that is of the Abrahamic scriptures that do not fall in line with God's FINAL revelation has obviously been altered and tampered by man. There is absolutely no possible way you can deny that fact because numerous Christian Pastors, Bible Scholars and religious academics have admitted this to be the case and there is authentic evidence. And you're talking about luck?
P.S. -- A question for all Muslims to consider carefully:
If "Gabriel", "Allah", and Mohammed (a real living entity) thought there had been Bible tahrif,
they surely would have screamed WARNINGS from the roof-tops, but alas, they did no such thing. Sorry, a few little comments about scribes writing some non-biblical stuff for their own gain doesn't qualify.
Again, a weak attempt to with no basis to justify your own point. Read the Quran. Hopefully you will be informed about the Tahrif that Islam has been pointing out for the last 1400 years.
Additional Notes -
There's a whole array of Quranic miracles that dive into Science, linguistics and many other aspects which prove that it surely could not have come from Satan but God alone. ALL of it is in the Holy Quran. Certainly we shouldn't give you more to digest than you can bite (in the form of examples). So lets start slow.
You my friend, need to go and sincerely, I repeat, sincerely open your heart and find out What the Holy Quran is. That is going to take some time and effort. If you need help, please don't hesitate to ask.
You can start here - http://quran.com/ (That's the Quran in Arabic form with translations in English)
Or here - http://quranicaudio.com/quran/58 (That's the audio Quran recited in it's verbatim Arabic form and translated in English)
May Allah (God Almighty) guide you
,You should know that when you brought up this Bible verse as a test for Mohammed (peace be upon him):
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
You actually prove that Islam is of God, instead of dismissing it as you did and here's why:
During the time of Jesus Christ, he was not called "Jesus Christ" as if "Christ" was his last name. "Christ" is actually a title which is why he is sometimes referred to as Jesus THE Christ. This is a translation of his name into the English language which 'Isa never spoke. "Christ" is the English translation of the Greek word "Christos" which means "The annointed one". The Greek "Christos" was a translation of the original Hebrew "Mashiaẖ", which means Messiah. So the English word "Christ" is a translation from the Hebrew word for Messiah.
This test isn't talking about God being born into the world. It's talking about the Messiah being born into the world and every spirit who confesses this "is of God" i.e. sent from God (since we are talking about prophets and angels here). The "is of God" part is referring to "every spirit", not Jesus Christ and "is not of God" is referring to "every spirit" also. This is a grammatically correct reading of the verse.
Now what does this all mean? If we apply this information into the verse this is what we get:
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus (The Messiah) has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus (The Messiah) has come in the flesh is not of God.
Did Mohammed (peace be upon him) ever deny that Jesus the Messiah/the Christ/Christ came in the flesh? Absolutely not. Does he deny that Jesus is indeed the Messiah/the Christ/Christ and that he is coming back? No he does not. So, according to your test, Mohammed (peace be upon him) passes and he is of God.
QUOTE(Philip @ Apr 25 2011, 10:44 AM)
Christians say "love thy neighbour" then they proceed to convert a continent (or 4) at the sword.
Utter and complete nonsense.I've just read a great book on the crusades ... "God's Battalions" by Rodney Stark.
Islam had been aggressively evangelising (and killing) everywhere in many directions.
So, the crusades developed for obvious reasons (none of which included expansionary aspirations).
Everyone needs to read this book for the truth about the crusades.
Tebou,
The Messiah = The Christ = The Son of God
The Jews have always believed and taught this!
The following are statements made by Jews …
"We have found the Messiah (which is translated the Christ)" (John 1:41)
"The woman (non-Jew) said to Him (Jesus), 'I know that Messiah is coming' (who is called Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things.'
Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.' " (John 4:25-26)
"Tell us (Jews) if You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 26:63)
"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" (Mark 14:61)
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16)
Therefore … "Messiah" (Hebrew) = "Cristos" (Greek) = "Christ" (English).
"... but these (Jesus' signs) are written that you may believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing
you may have (eternal) life in His name." (John 20:31)
Maybe someone should research and determine exactly what the Jews meant by "the Son of God".
The Messiah = The Christ = The Son of God
The Jews have always believed and taught this!
The following are statements made by Jews …
"We have found the Messiah (which is translated the Christ)" (John 1:41)
"The woman (non-Jew) said to Him (Jesus), 'I know that Messiah is coming' (who is called Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things.'
Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.' " (John 4:25-26)
"Tell us (Jews) if You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 26:63)
"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" (Mark 14:61)
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16)
Therefore … "Messiah" (Hebrew) = "Cristos" (Greek) = "Christ" (English).
"... but these (Jesus' signs) are written that you may believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing
you may have (eternal) life in His name." (John 20:31)
Maybe someone should research and determine exactly what the Jews meant by "the Son of God".
Randolph,
The Hebrew word for Messiah (Mashiah/Moshiach) does not mean "Son of God" as you claim. In fact, the belief that Jesus is God or the Son of God is completely incompatible with the tenants of Judaism.
According to which denomination of Judaism followed, the Messiah (meaning "the anointed king") is either a man or a symbol of the Messianic Age, not God incarnate nor His son. Orthodox Jews have mainly believed that the Messiah will be the anointed one (messiah), descended from his father through the line of King David via Solomon, who will fulfill the messianic prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah, bring the Jews back into the Land of Israel and usher in an era of peace, among other things.
So to claim that Jews have always believed and taught that The Messiah = The Christ = The Son of God is incorrect. If you don't believe me go ask a Hebrew-speaking Jew what "Mashiah" means and see if they respond with "The Son of God". I doubt it.
The only Jews who would have believed and taught that "Mashiah" means "Son of God", as you claim, would have been those who became Christians during the time of Jesus, in which case they would have stopped being Jews since they would have broken the most pinnacle tenant of Judaism (not joining gods with God).
Furthermore, Hebrew is historically and culturally considered to be the language of the Jewish people. Therefore, the Hebrew word for the Messiah would not have been synonymous with the "Son of God" since it is a language very closely tied to the Judaism and therefore it's most basic ideologies.
So, for a group of people (The Ex-Jew Christians) to come thousands of years after the already established fact that is proven by scripture older than the Bible that the word "Mashiah" does not mean "Son of God" in any sense, to completely derail the first commandment of countless generations of people to only worship one God, and then to suddenly change the meaning of the word to fit into their new religion (Christianity), does not negate the fact that Mashiah does not mean "Son of God".
The Hebrew word for Messiah (Mashiah/Moshiach) does not mean "Son of God" as you claim. In fact, the belief that Jesus is God or the Son of God is completely incompatible with the tenants of Judaism.
According to which denomination of Judaism followed, the Messiah (meaning "the anointed king") is either a man or a symbol of the Messianic Age, not God incarnate nor His son. Orthodox Jews have mainly believed that the Messiah will be the anointed one (messiah), descended from his father through the line of King David via Solomon, who will fulfill the messianic prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah, bring the Jews back into the Land of Israel and usher in an era of peace, among other things.
So to claim that Jews have always believed and taught that The Messiah = The Christ = The Son of God is incorrect. If you don't believe me go ask a Hebrew-speaking Jew what "Mashiah" means and see if they respond with "The Son of God". I doubt it.
The only Jews who would have believed and taught that "Mashiah" means "Son of God", as you claim, would have been those who became Christians during the time of Jesus, in which case they would have stopped being Jews since they would have broken the most pinnacle tenant of Judaism (not joining gods with God).
Furthermore, Hebrew is historically and culturally considered to be the language of the Jewish people. Therefore, the Hebrew word for the Messiah would not have been synonymous with the "Son of God" since it is a language very closely tied to the Judaism and therefore it's most basic ideologies.
So, for a group of people (The Ex-Jew Christians) to come thousands of years after the already established fact that is proven by scripture older than the Bible that the word "Mashiah" does not mean "Son of God" in any sense, to completely derail the first commandment of countless generations of people to only worship one God, and then to suddenly change the meaning of the word to fit into their new religion (Christianity), does not negate the fact that Mashiah does not mean "Son of God".
Tebou,
The verses I gave you were spoken by Jews.
E.g. Matthew 26:63 was asked by the high priest of the Sanhedrin.
Jesus agreed that He was the Christ, the Son of God.
Then the high priest said He had spoken blasphemy.
Randolph,
Precisely.
In Matthew 26:63, the high priest asks if Jesus claims he is the Christ, the Son of God, then Jesus sort of admits it in a round about way, and then what does the high priest do?
He accuses Jesus of speaking blasphemy.
Why?
Because for the Jews (and Muslims) the Christ/Christos/Messiah/Mashiah is not associated in any way with the title "Son of God", "God", etc. The high priest accused him of this because claiming a mortal person to be God or His Son is attributing human qualities (having children, defectating, eating, sleeping, dying, etc.) to the Almighty and this is an extremely grave issue.
This is an ideology that is very firmly engrained into both Muslims and Jews, and is very clearly blasphemous for both religious faiths, which is why in a masjid or synagogue you will not see paintings of "God", nor hear us describe mortal prophets as His Sons in any sense, spiritual or biological.
There are no stained glass windows/pictures/statues of Jesus, Mary, Moses, Abraham, etc. in a masjid nor in a synagogue not because we believe these persons to be God or His Son and do not want to make images of God, but rather, because the creation of these images can lead to misplaced reverence and worship and lead us astray from the one true God, whose physical features are indescribable, unimaginable and beyond our scope of knowledge.
Therefore, any images we humans make of God will only be falsehood and an expression of what we desire God to resemble, since we cannot draw what is unimaginable in our heads. All the of the most wildest images in our brain that pop up, whether they are brought out into the world through paintings or statues or whether they are not made manifest, are figments of our imagination based on the miniscule amount God's creation that He has given us the ability to experience.
This most basic principle which is paramount to both Jews and Muslims is not so with the Christians despite the commandments "You shall have no other gods before me" and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".
The idea that Jesus is not the "Son of God" is equally as important to the Jews (and Muslims) as it is to the Christians that he is the "Son of God". So, to claim that a Jew said that the Messiah = The Son of God is as if claiming that a Christian said that Jesus = False Messiah. If indeed these things were admitted by a Jew or a Christian, they would cease to be a Jew and a Christian according to their religions and the Jew would then be considered a Christian and the Christian a Jew. It flies completely in the face of their respective religion and makes no sense in the context of the principles on which those two religions are founded upon.
Precisely.
In Matthew 26:63, the high priest asks if Jesus claims he is the Christ, the Son of God, then Jesus sort of admits it in a round about way, and then what does the high priest do?
He accuses Jesus of speaking blasphemy.
Why?
Because for the Jews (and Muslims) the Christ/Christos/Messiah/Mashiah is not associated in any way with the title "Son of God", "God", etc. The high priest accused him of this because claiming a mortal person to be God or His Son is attributing human qualities (having children, defectating, eating, sleeping, dying, etc.) to the Almighty and this is an extremely grave issue.
This is an ideology that is very firmly engrained into both Muslims and Jews, and is very clearly blasphemous for both religious faiths, which is why in a masjid or synagogue you will not see paintings of "God", nor hear us describe mortal prophets as His Sons in any sense, spiritual or biological.
There are no stained glass windows/pictures/statues of Jesus, Mary, Moses, Abraham, etc. in a masjid nor in a synagogue not because we believe these persons to be God or His Son and do not want to make images of God, but rather, because the creation of these images can lead to misplaced reverence and worship and lead us astray from the one true God, whose physical features are indescribable, unimaginable and beyond our scope of knowledge.
Therefore, any images we humans make of God will only be falsehood and an expression of what we desire God to resemble, since we cannot draw what is unimaginable in our heads. All the of the most wildest images in our brain that pop up, whether they are brought out into the world through paintings or statues or whether they are not made manifest, are figments of our imagination based on the miniscule amount God's creation that He has given us the ability to experience.
This most basic principle which is paramount to both Jews and Muslims is not so with the Christians despite the commandments "You shall have no other gods before me" and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".
The idea that Jesus is not the "Son of God" is equally as important to the Jews (and Muslims) as it is to the Christians that he is the "Son of God". So, to claim that a Jew said that the Messiah = The Son of God is as if claiming that a Christian said that Jesus = False Messiah. If indeed these things were admitted by a Jew or a Christian, they would cease to be a Jew and a Christian according to their religions and the Jew would then be considered a Christian and the Christian a Jew. It flies completely in the face of their respective religion and makes no sense in the context of the principles on which those two religions are founded upon.
Tebou,
Truthfully, I don't understand all of your garbage.
You sound like Muslims who insist Scripture couldn't possibly mean what it clearly says.
Often they say I'm interpreting it wrongly. Millions of Christians are interpreting it wrongly?
Here are 4 questions for you:
In several places in the OT, God says:
-- the Jews were spiritually blind and deaf
-- He would leave them that way
-- He would disperse them throughout the world
-- later, he would gather them back together again (i.e. 1948)
When, where, how, and why did God remove their spiritual blindness/deafness?
P.S. This explains why they always had, and still have, this problem.
E.G. They still don't understand why God allowed them to suffer the Holocaust.
Yep, it's true, believe me.
Truthfully, I don't understand all of your garbage.
You sound like Muslims who insist Scripture couldn't possibly mean what it clearly says.
Often they say I'm interpreting it wrongly. Millions of Christians are interpreting it wrongly?
Here are 4 questions for you:
In several places in the OT, God says:
-- the Jews were spiritually blind and deaf
-- He would leave them that way
-- He would disperse them throughout the world
-- later, he would gather them back together again (i.e. 1948)
When, where, how, and why did God remove their spiritual blindness/deafness?
P.S. This explains why they always had, and still have, this problem.
E.G. They still don't understand why God allowed them to suffer the Holocaust.
Yep, it's true, believe me.
Randolph,
It is clear that this post was not created for the aim of opening up an intellectual and respectful discussion between the two faiths, but rather to push your agenda in any manner possible in spite the proof that has been presented against your position. I have made it abundantly clear that the Hebrew word for Messiah does not mean the "Son of God", but if you insist on not accepting the historical, cultural, linguistic, and just plain factual information that I have provided for you in a respectful manner, then there is no further purpose to this debate. No change or improvement can come from continuing this dialogue as you refuse to consider the proof that I (and others) have presented in several posts, and especially since you have revealed your closemindedness and resorted to dismissing and insulting my posts as "garbage".
Good luck to you.
قُلۡ يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلۡڪَـٰفِرُونَ
لَآ أَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُونَ
وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ
وَلَآ أَنَا۟ عَابِدٌ۬ مَّا عَبَدتُّمۡ
وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ
لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِىَ دِينِ
It is clear that this post was not created for the aim of opening up an intellectual and respectful discussion between the two faiths, but rather to push your agenda in any manner possible in spite the proof that has been presented against your position. I have made it abundantly clear that the Hebrew word for Messiah does not mean the "Son of God", but if you insist on not accepting the historical, cultural, linguistic, and just plain factual information that I have provided for you in a respectful manner, then there is no further purpose to this debate. No change or improvement can come from continuing this dialogue as you refuse to consider the proof that I (and others) have presented in several posts, and especially since you have revealed your closemindedness and resorted to dismissing and insulting my posts as "garbage".
Good luck to you.
قُلۡ يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلۡڪَـٰفِرُونَ
لَآ أَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُونَ
وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ
وَلَآ أَنَا۟ عَابِدٌ۬ مَّا عَبَدتُّمۡ
وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ
لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِىَ دِينِ
I am showing again that ...
The gospels clearly reveal that Jews 2000 years ago believed:
the Messiah = the Christ = the Son of God.
"Tell us (Jews) if You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 26:63).
"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" (Mark 14:61).
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16).
"We (Jews) have found the Messiah (which is translated the Christ)" (John 1:41).
"... but these (Jesus' signs) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have (eternal) life in His name." (John 20:31).
Note: Matthew and John were Jews before becoming Jesus' disciples.
"The woman (non-Jew) said to Him (Jesus), 'I know that Messiah is coming' (who is called Christ).
When He comes, He will tell us all things.' Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.' " (John 4:25-26).
I have encountered many liberal Jews on the Internet who DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SCRIPTURES.</SPAN>
So, I am warning all of you ... BEWARE of these people ... they are enemies of God.
The gospels clearly reveal that Jews 2000 years ago believed:
the Messiah = the Christ = the Son of God.
"Tell us (Jews) if You are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 26:63).
"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" (Mark 14:61).
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16).
"We (Jews) have found the Messiah (which is translated the Christ)" (John 1:41).
"... but these (Jesus' signs) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have (eternal) life in His name." (John 20:31).
Note: Matthew and John were Jews before becoming Jesus' disciples.
"The woman (non-Jew) said to Him (Jesus), 'I know that Messiah is coming' (who is called Christ).
When He comes, He will tell us all things.' Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.' " (John 4:25-26).
I have encountered many liberal Jews on the Internet who DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SCRIPTURES.</SPAN>
So, I am warning all of you ... BEWARE of these people ... they are enemies of God.
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